Аджан Ча говорил о природе Будды аналогично махаянским толкованиям:
Тут есть некоторое внешнее сходство, но тайское понятие "пу ру" (того, кто знает), или, что то же самое, "пу ду" (наблюдателя) заслуживает более глубокого изучения:
(By CHS on E-sangha)
This is from what I heard. Be cautious.
Buddho for what? To know the mind (to have Sati Sampajanna).
What are at least three ways of doing and the many kinds of result of reciting Buddho:
1. After reciting Buddho, the mind is dulled and cloudy with a diminishing awareness. Some may have a loss of awareness as if one is asleep or some may have a dream-like state. If this happen, you don't have Sati Sampajanna for sure.
2. When Buddho is coupled with in- and out-breathing, this is for suppression of mental agitation by thoughts, to train the mind to dwell in breathing as described in the post above. When the mind is calmed down, Buddho is dropped away, just feeling of breathing only. So this is Anapanasati as usual. In the forest tradition, they need to cultivate Appana Samadhi, and when the mind withdraws from Appana Samadhi, they must investigate the body and mind. Not just doing Samadhi only.
3. Reciting Buddho to establish an alert awareness separated from the Buddho. This can be done either slow or fast recitation of Buddho, (any chanting or mantra will do), depending on each one predilection. After a while, when the mind is calmed down and the recitation is flowing smoothly without much effort, observe that Buddho is being perceived and reflect that there a separated awareness apart from Buddho. Use this awareness to investigate the body and mind. (All of us have a sense that the computer screen just in front of us is separated from us, it is the same for the reciting word Buddho.)
Luang Pu Bunjan teaches: พุทโธใจรู้ พุทโธรู้ใจ Buddho, the mind knows. Buddho, knows the mind. The first Buddho, the reciting word, is the object of the mind and the mind knows this object of the mind. The second Buddho is an “alert” awareness, a consciousness reflection of the calm awareness that arises.
Luang Pu Fun teaches: พุทโธรู้สึกตัว Buddho, self-aware. Self awareness here means that you are not drowned into a flight of thought, or fixedly staring at something; be at present.
The way of Forest Kammathana: It is the way of Samathayanika. There are three steps.
According to the commentary to the Mahasatipattathana sutta: Those with Tanha caritta and Samathayanika are suitable for practicing Kaya- and Vedananupassana. Those of the forest monks are mostly rural peasants, and all their lives are full of aching pain of their bodies due to hard physical work in rice fields. So they yearn for a more comfortable life; this is Tanha caritta.
The first step is to do Samatha by reciting Buddho. They can do Samatha very well but are simply caught into stillness and nothing else. ( It is well known that most educated Western monks in this tradition find it more difficult to do calming meditation while they are more excellent in contemplation of Dhamma: different in caritta.)
So there comes the second step of investigating the 32 components of the body or Asupa contemplation after withdrawal from the samatha meditation. There are two-fold benefits of this step: 1. to activate the mind from being caught in stillness, the mind that feels lazy. 2. to diminish Raka. By doing the step one and two repeatedly will enhance one’s capability to go into a deeper state of Samatha or into Jhana states. And when arising from Samatha to contemplate the body, some may have the sense of dissolution of the entire body; then the mind comes to reflect on the awareness itself. The body is no longer the object of interest of the mind(the mind no longer resorts to the body), and at this stage, the investigating of the mental phenomena will follow automatically.
Step three, the most important one, is one must practice mindfulness in daily life, by following to know the body in various postures and all coarse and fine bodily movements. This is the way to establish mindfulness(Sati Sampajanna) in daily life. The practice in the step one and two will enhances the perception of Rupa as Rupa and Vedana as Vedana. Mindfulness of the citta and dhamma will follow suit.
Many new-generation monks of this tradition mainly teach the step three and just lighter calming meditation, since they reason that it is much more difficult for urban people to cultivate Jhana. Luang Pu Dule did not teach the step one and two to my teacher, an urbanist with a master degree. He told my teacher to directly observe his mind. The teachings and the approaches are not as homogenous as we think.
Another thing to add: Luang Pu Lah Kemmapatto and my teacher teach that the mind, citta, arises and falls very fast. So let the controversial teaching be a controversial teaching, not in accordance with the Pariyatti.
Just for fun:
1. Raise you hand close to the moniter. Do you feel that your hand and the moniter have a similar weight in your mind?
2. When pain arises in a sitting session, do you see pain as pain separated from a calm awareness of the mind or your mind is agitated with repulsion?
3. In routine daily life activities, does anyone automatically mentally register the followings activities without an intention to note them:
"Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.”
A keen witted Tanha carita person would find that contemplation of Kayanupassa of the Mahasatipattana is boring, narrowed and shallowed , unsuitable for his mind capability which needs more challenge, that is Vedananupassana.
A keen witted Dithi carita person would find that contemplation of Cittanupassana is shallowed unlike that of Dhammanupassana which offers much more varieties of objects of contemplation.
Tanha carita VS Dithi carita:
A tanha carita person loves to indulge oneself in pleasurable things or it could be someone who loves calmness or solitude, while a dithi carita person could well tolerate a hardship in his life to uphold his idea or theory. He loves to think and to argue.
I guess most in this board are likely of Dithi carita and could well be practicing either Citta or Dhammanupassana according to the Attakatha. A practice of mindfulness in the cittanupasana section does not need a strong back up of Samadhi ( Vipassanayanika according to the Attakatha) since anytime that we reconize we are thinking, the thinking process will stop. (Don't confuse this with recognition of thought contents.) But it will occur again and again. Just simply follow with neutrality, without any intention to suppress thinking. And we would be able to discern the three characteristics of mental concoction. (It is no longer "my idea", but it is just simply a thought process.) And when Sati-Sampajanna is well established, discernment of Kaya and Vedanna will follow by itself. Strong Samadhi will banish thoughts and also Raka and Dhosa from arising in Cittanupassa, so that why the Attakatha said it was suited from Vipassanayanika.
There is also another system of carittas classification provided in the Atthagatha of the Mahasatipattathana sutta. All carittas classification according to Visuddhimagga, to my understading, is for calmig meditation (Samatha Bhavana), ( various Kasina precription and Annusati.)
The classifcation provided in the Atthagatha of the Mahasatipattathana sutta is for the Mindfulness practice and they gave only to carittas: Tanha caritta and Dhiti caritta.
The first two sections of the Mahasatipattathana sutta, Kaya and Vedana, are suitable of those of Tanha caritta and Samathayanika to begin with.
The Citta and Dhamma sections, are suitable for those of dhiti caritta and Vipassanayanika to begin with.
คำ ว่า เอกายนมรรค กับคำว่า สติปัฏฐาน ๔ โดยอรรถก็เป็นอันเดียวกัน ต่างกันแต่พยัญชนะเท่านั้นก็ฉันนั้น เพราะฉะนั้น บัณฑิตพึงทราบว่า เป็นเอกวจนะ ก็เพราะเป็นทางเดียว ด้วยอรรถว่าเป็นมรรค เป็นพหุวจนะ ก็เพราะมีสติมาก โดยความต่างแห่งอารมณ์.
ถามว่า ก็เพราะเหตุไร พระผู้มีพระภาคเจ้าจึงตรัสสติปัฏฐานว่ามี ๔ ไม่หย่อนไม่ยิ่ง.
แท้ จริง ในจำพวกเวไนยสัตว์ที่เป็นตัณหาจริต ทิฏฐิจริต ผู้เป็นสมถยานิก (ผู้มีสมถะเป็นยาน) และวิปัสสนายานิก (ผู้มีวิปัสสนาเป็นยาน) ที่เป็นไปโดยส่วนทั้งสอง คือ ปัญญาอ่อน และปัญญากล้า
กายานุปัสสนาสติ ปัฏฐานมีอารมณ์หยาบเป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้มีตัณหาจริต มีปัญญาอ่อน. เวทนานุปัสสนาสติปัฏฐานมีอารมณ์ละเอียด เป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้มีตัณหาจริต มีปัญญากล้า. จิตตานุปัสสนาสติปัฏฐานที่มีอารมณ์ไม่แยกออกมากนัก เป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้มีทิฏฐิจริต มีปัญญาอ่อน. ธัมมานุปัสสนาสติปัฏฐานที่มีอารมณ์แยกออกมาก เป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้มีทิฏฐิจริต มีปัญญากล้า.
อนึ่ง สติปัฏฐานข้อ ๑ ที่มีนิมิตอันจะพึงบรรลุได้โดยไม่ยาก เป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้เป็นสมถยานิก มีปัญญาอ่อน. สติปัฏฐานข้อที่ ๒ เพราะไม่ตั้งอยู่ในอารมณ์อย่างหยาบ จึงเป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้เป็นสมถยานิก มีปัญญากล้า. สติปัฏฐานข้อที่ ๓ มีอารมณ์ที่แยกออกไม่มากนัก เป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้เป็นวิปัสสนายานิก มีปัญญาอ่อน. สติปัฏฐานข้อที่ ๔ มีอารมณ์ที่แยกออกมาก เป็นทางหมดจด สำหรับเวไนยสัตว์ผู้เป็นวิปัสสนายานิกมีปัญญากล้า.
เพราะเหตุดังนั้น จึงกล่าวว่า สติปัฏฐานมี ๔ เท่านั้น ไม่หย่อนไม่ยิ่ง.
The way of meditation the Thai forest tradition really follows this Attagatha instruction.
"one who knows"
Yes, it is a form of sampajanna: a Jhana back-up sampajanna. It has a much more strength than the sampajanna of the dry insight practice. Sampajanna is a kusala sankara, which is still fallen under the three characteristics, and not yet a Mahakiriya Citta of an arahant. "The one who knows" can send someone up to an Anakami, of which his "the one who knows" will be very bright and clear due to the abandonment of Raka and Dhosa. (Raka and Dhosa are enemies of Jhana.) To pass on to Arahatship, one must realize that "the one who knows" is either Anicca, Dhukka or Annata which is the complete realization of the first Noble Truth: Upadana Skandas are Dhukka. That is why Luang Pu Dule said: if you meet the one who knows, kill him. Luang Pu Lah said: Nibbana is beyond the one who knows.
But if you don't have such a strong "the one who knows", don't be worried. Sampajanna of the dry insight works well too, especially when doing the mind investigation of the 3rd section of Mahasatipattathana sutta. The commentary to the Sutta, expicitly wrote that Citta investigation is suitable for a Vipassanayanika ( the one who practice the dry insight). Later on, one can see the Kaya and Vedana with sampajanna.
My teacher always stresses this point. Luang Pu Lah Kemmapatto once said: if anyone still thinks that the one who knows is permanent, he still has a wrong view (Micchadithi). I have had this kind of separation just a few times and it is so extra-ordinary such that many things that are usually incorporated into our self boundary are suddenly thrown out of the boundary. Just like a computer monitor in front of you is not a part of you. It is good for investigating Kaya and Vedana.
The maha-Kiriya citta is a very magical thing in itself indeed, in my eyes: totally independent from, not inducible, unblemished, unstained or uncontaminated by any kinds of Kusala or Akusala Vipaka Cittas. It was like a lotus leave which contacts but not absorbs water, or a lotus surrounded by a mud without contamination, as were written in the texts, right?
I was wondering in the texts they said an arahant lived with Saupadisesa-Nibbana and this must be meant for the ordinary daily living of an arahant and in the aspect of Viraka or Visankara. For the Phala-samapatti above it was meant for Anupadisesa-nibbana. Is this correct?
Don't be serious with the following. Just for fun.
Some has offered an explanation why the mind of an arahant seems boundless, which I think this quality was also mentioned in the texts. It is because Nama and Rupa are all completely equal, and no longer there is a perceiver, unlike all of us, who still have a perceiver residing in the body.
The Mahakiriya citta of an arahant is the manifestation of his mind when he contacts the world and it is still Kamavacara citta, not Lokuttarara citta. There must be the other aspect of his mind: the manifestation of his consciousness as it contacts Nibbana Dhatu. It must be Lokuttara citta or the Arahattaphala citta. When this manifestation arises? It couldn't be superimposed upon the Mahakiriya citta, right? (Since the rule says one citta at a time.) Does an arahant need to do a Phala-Samapatti meditation in order to contact Nibbana as in the cases of the lower-leveled Ariya-pukkala? Or does his mind spontaneously contact Nibbana whenever he does not pay attention to the world?
Abide by the one who knows: อยู่กับผู้รู้
What is the one who knows: It is the term used specifically in the Forest tradition in which serious cultivation of Samatha Bhavana must be first achieved before doing Vipassana. It is the state of full Sati-sampajanna, backed up by the power of Jhana. In the 2nd state of Jhana of Samma-Samadhi, (well it must be Samma-Samadhi, not ordinary Jhanic Samadhi), there arises what is termed EkkaDhammo or Ekkothibhava and when a practitioner awakes from this Jhanic absorption, there will be a retention of an utmost stillness of the mind, and when contacts with six senses happen, there will be a strong separation between the percieved and the perceiver, similar to that of oid and water.
So one can clearly see our mental phenomena without attachment and spontaneously appreciate the three characteristics with equanimity. The part of the perceiver is the one who knows. However this is not yet a liberation. It is just a tool; the one who knows is still another Sankara, embedded with subtle "I" and the three Asava Kilesa. So the choice No. 8 is incorrect. It must be abandoned finally.
Analogy of this separation is like that you can distinguish between the atmosphere and space. The atmosphere changes all the time; it is hot, cold, windy, rainy or stormy but the space that accomodates it just stays still. The space is the one who knows and the atmosphere is our mind phenomena.
This experience may not happen to those who practices direct Vipassana or they may have a very weaker one
Please allow me to share some thoughts about Poo Roo (ผู้รู้). This is my view only and it is from what I have heard and read. Be careful of what is written below since I would not assert that it is absolutely correct. Just something from my memory. Throw in tons of grains of salt. I’ll take all the blames for anything wrong, and if there is something good, a million thanks to my teacher.
As all Theravadin meditators know, there are two ways of Vipassana: Samatha-Vipassana (Samathayanika) and Vipassana only (Vipassanayanika). The necessary requirements of these two ways of meditation are Sati and Sampajanna, in order to have a neutral discernment of mind phenomena (Nama-Rupa and their arising and falling). Both ways do work, but there is some difference in that those who have attained a jhanic power will have a very, very strong and clear sense of separation of awareness from the object of awareness. It sounds wired, isn’t it? When you see a mouse or a computer monitor just in front of you, there is a clear sense of separation that it is definitely not a part of you, and it is totally weightless in your mind. Look at your hand, do you feel like that? Are you hand equal to the mouse? Now consider a physical or mental discomfort, pain or fear; can anyone see them as something else with no connection to the mind, while the seeing mind is very calm and clear, and unshaken but yet open entirely to the experience? This state of mental separation can arise when a samatha meditator continues Vipassana meditation right away after a jhanic meditation session, and the detached awareness part is the Poo Roo. In one sutta regarding Samma Samadhi, it was written that in the Jhana states, EkaDhammo (เอกธัมโม) arose, and there were Sati, Sampajannya and Ubekka. These elements may be related to Poo Roo, since they may enable a meditator to maintain a detached and neutral awareness separated from the object of awareness after he/she has emerged from the deep jhanic meditative state. So who attains this ability can simply see the arising and falling of Nama and Rupa without attachment, similar to when we observe a theatrical play from a distance, without getting involved or submerged into the story of the play, while all the actors are actually our various mind states/components or our mind actions. Someone who has such an experience once will know it by heart. It contains both acceptance and detachment together, and it is also spontaneous, beyond intention, and without thoughts.
The one who knows in the forest tradition is not a permanent consciousness residing in Nibbana forever. The one who knows is just a tool to see Aramana with detachment such the three characteristics could be appreciated easily. Luang Pu Lah Kaemmapatto said Nibbana is beyond the one who knows (ผู้รู้) and Lung Pu Dule said when if you meet the one who knows, kill him. The one who knows is a tool that can bring someone up to the Anakami, but not the Arahant.
Secondly, the presence of consciousness that rise above the Skandas, that is not contaminated by Skandas is affirmed in this lineage, but this is the experience of a “living” achiever of this lineage only. As far as I know, most of them never spoke of what would be after the death of the achiever, and most did not talk about the forever-exiting consciousness being united with Nibbana after death, except in one controversial biography.
For those who are well versed in Abhidhamma, could you please tell me about the Maha-Kiriya citta of an arahant, whose mind still contacts the world, with frequent arising of Vipakka cittas resulted from the pre-enlightened Kamma, but it is still unperturbed and commit no Kamma, even though lots of activities yielding no result are taking place in this kind of mind. I remember one Abhidhammika posted that the mind of The Buddha still contained a thousand monkeys, but it is only Kiriya.