Практика для мирян - Общие вопросы - Постижение
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Bahupada

Практика для мирян
« : 01 Ноябрь 2008 08:47 »

Может я повторяюсь с тем, что уже было, так что простите, если что.

Вопрос такой. Каково было и есть в традиции тхеравады отношение монахов, старейшин, к тому, чтобы практику учения Будды выполняли миряне?

Я имею в виду не только Упосатху и пр. а вот именно практику. Осознанности, сосредоточения. Корче "монашеские технологии".

Есть ли в тхеравадинских странах у мирян - домохозяев - такое понятие, чтобы вот прям практика?

Допустимо ли понятие "закрытой проповеди", чего-то такого, что мирянам не положено преподавать? То есть, не то, чтобы прям нельзя и все тут, а в том смысле, что "шли бы вы лучше... по своим делам".
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Ассаджи

Re: Практика для мирян
« Ответ #1 : 01 Ноябрь 2008 23:18 »

Вопрос такой. Каково было и есть в традиции тхеравады отношение монахов, старейшин, к тому, чтобы практику учения Будды выполняли миряне?

Хорошее.

'Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, "We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick." So you should train yourself, "Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture." That's how you should train yourself.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.176.than.html

Further, in that territory of the Kuru people,5 the four classes — bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika — generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be."

http://vipassanadhura.com/WayofMindfulness.html

На сайте есть Сигаловада Сутта http://www.dhamma.ru/canon/dn31.htm

Есть пара статей Бхиккху Бодхи:
http://dhamma.ru/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282a.htm
http://dhamma.ru/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282b.htm

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Я имею в виду не только Упосатху и пр. а вот именно практику. Осознанности, сосредоточения. Корче "монашеские технологии".

Осознанность и сосредоточение практикуют и миряне. Другое дело, что некоторые тонкие моменты обычно понятнее опытным монахам.

"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

"In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html

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Есть ли в тхеравадинских странах у мирян - домохозяев - такое понятие, чтобы вот прям практика?

Да. Досточтимый Махаси Саядо в середине двадцатого века сделал это массовым явлением.

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Допустимо ли понятие "закрытой проповеди", чего-то такого, что мирянам не положено преподавать? То есть, не то, чтобы прям нельзя и все тут, а в том смысле, что "шли бы вы лучше... по своим делам".

Будда не держал в тайне каких-то учений.

"Я поведал вам всю Дхамму, и у меня не было разделения между тайным и явным учением; и ни одного из учений, Ананда, не было сокрыто от вас в сжатой руке учителя."

http://dhamma.ru/canon/dn16.htm#_Toc42753382

O disciples, there are three to whom secrecy belongs and not openness. Who are they? Secrecy belongs to women, not openness; secrecy belongs to priestly wisdom, not openness; secrecy belongs to false doctrine, not openness. To these three belongs secrecy, not openness.

But there are three things that shine before all the world, and not in secret. Which are they? The disc of the moon, O disciples, shines before all the world, and not in secret; the disc of the sun shines before all the world, and not in secret; the doctrines and rules proclaimed by the perfect Buddha since before all the world, not in secret. These three things shine before all the world, and not in secret.

9. Paṭicchannasuttaṃ

132. ‘‘Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, paṭicchannāni āvahanti [vahanti (sī. syā. kaṃ. pī.)], no vivaṭāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Mātugāmo, bhikkhave, paṭicchanno āvahati, no vivaṭo; brāhmaṇānaṃ, bhikkhave, mantā paṭicchannā āvahanti, no vivaṭā; micchādiṭṭhi, bhikkhave, paṭicchannā āvahati, no vivaṭā. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi paṭicchannāni āvahanti, no vivaṭāni.

‘‘Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, vivaṭāni virocanti, no paṭicchannāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Candamaṇḍalaṃ, bhikkhave, vivaṭaṃ virocati, no paṭicchannaṃ; sūriyamaṇḍalaṃ, bhikkhave, vivaṭaṃ virocati, no paṭicchannaṃ; tathāgatappavedito dhammavinayo, bhikkhave, vivaṭo virocati, no paṭicchanno. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi vivaṭāni virocanti, no paṭicchannānī’’ti.


http://www.purifymind.com/EsotericBuddhism.htm

Хотя, конечно, монахи не обязаны отвечать на все вопросы.
« Последнее редактирование: 18 Июль 2013 08:45 от Ассаджи »
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Bahupada

Re: Практика для мирян
« Ответ #2 : 02 Ноябрь 2008 02:44 »

На сайте есть Сигаловада Сутта http://www.dhamma.ru/canon/dn31.htm

Это как раз из разряда "вот то малое, что способен произнести мирской человек, произнося хвалу Татхагате".

В остальном спасибо за такой развёрнутый ответ! Некоторые цитаты действительно воодушевляют и задают ориентир.

Хвала Будде!
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Ассаджи

Re: Практика для мирян
« Ответ #3 : 02 Ноябрь 2008 07:50 »

Тогда еще несколько цитат :)

"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-179.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an10-092.html

http://www.tuvienquangduc.net/English/basic/11teach07.html

`Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, and bhikkhunis. Is there a single lay disciple of Gotama, who wearing white clothes had led the holy life, has destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and is born spontaneously, not to proceed?' `Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, who have destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and born spontaneously would not proceed,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other thanbhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single a lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher. Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leadingthe holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other than the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, the lay disciples who have arisen spontaneously and will not proceed, and the ones who have entered the stream of the Teaching and are confident, is there a single female lay disciple of good Gotama. Who wears white clothes leads the holy life has destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and is born spontaneously not to proceed' `Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more female lay disciples of mine, who have destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and are born spontaneously not to proceed,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other than the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples arisen spontaneously who would not proceed and the ones who have entered the stream of the Teaching and are confident and the lay female disciples who have arisen apontaneously not to proceed is there is a single female lay disciple. Who wears white clothes leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, anddoing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts, has become confident, of what should and should not be done and does not need a teacher any more. `'Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more female lay disciples of mine wearing white clothes lead the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts. Have become confident of what should and should not be done. They do not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/073-maha-vacchagotta-e1.html

6. Catthavagga.

248. Bhikkhus out of my lay disciples the first to take the three refuges are Tapassu and Balluka, the

tradesmen

249. Anàthapindika, that is the householder Sudatta is the foremost lay devotee.

250. Citta Macchikasandika the householder for explaining the Teaching.

251. Hatthaka Aalavaka to establish liberality, kind speech, leading an useful life and a

state of equality among the others.

252. Mahanàma the Sakya is the foremost distinguished devotee.

253. Ugga the householder of Vesàli the most pleasant devotee.

254. Uggata the householder of Hatthigàma for attending on the Community.

255. Surambaññha for reconcillation

256. Jīvaka Komàrabhacca for pleasantness to all persons.

257. Nakulapita the householder the best confide

 

7. Sattama Vagga.

258. Bhikkhus, out of my lay female disciples the first to take the three refuges is Sujàta the daughter of

Seniya

259. Visakhà the mother of Migàra is the foremost female devotee.

260. Kujjuttarà the most learned.

261. Samawathie for developing loving kindness.

262. Uttaranandamàtà for jhanas.

263. Suppavàsa the daughter of the Koliyas the most pleasant devotee.

264. Suppiyà the female lay devotee for attending on the sick.

265. Katiyàni for permanent pleasantness.

266. Nakulamàta, the householder's wife for undivided pleasantness.

267. Kàli Kulagharikà, the female lay devotee for adhering to hearsay.

htp://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/014-Etadaggapali-e.html

There is no bar for women to attain arahantship without being a bhikkhuni; they need not be labelled as Bhikkhunis to achieve that objective. For instance Nakula Matha, Visakha, etc. attained arahantship while they were living lay lives.

http://www.dailymirror.lk/inside/features/020525.html

There have been several such instances of laymen who realized Nibbāna without renouncing the world. The most devout and generous lay follower Anāthapindika was a Sotāpanna,    [3] the Sakya Mahānāma was a Sakadāgāmi,    [4] the potter Ghatikāra was an Anāgāmi    [5] and King Suddhodana died as an Arahant.    [6]

http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/budtch/budteach35.htm

In a number of passages, however, laypeople are encouraged to go beyond: to strive after final salvation and nibbana. The very specific instructions connected with this attitude differ from the instructions that exhort the laypeople only to live a life of virtue and generosity in order to be reborn in heaven.[32] Laypeople are even encouraged to 'enter seclusion' from time to time.[33] And in fact, we find accounts of laypeople instructing not only other laypeople but also ascetics and even members of the sangha,[34] and in a number of accounts certain laypeople are said to have attained several 'spriritual' states, even arahantship.[35]

http://web.uni-marburg.de/religionswissenschaft/journal/mjr/freiberger_main.html#fnB31

Вот статья на английском о пути монахов и мирян:

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-buddhism&month=0110&week=c&msg=VYJ6xwvCwufSR6DBDJ4aOQ&user=&pw=
« Последнее редактирование: 14 Апрель 2010 08:39 от Ассаджи »
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Ассаджи

Re: Практика для мирян
« Ответ #4 : 13 Сентябрь 2013 11:04 »

Вот статья на английском о пути монахов и мирян:

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-buddhism&month=0110&week=c&msg=VYJ6xwvCwufSR6DBDJ4aOQ&user=&pw=

Robert Bluck
The Path of the Householder: Buddhist Lay Discipline in the Pāli Canon
www.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/download/8773/6248
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