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[Кусярон]

Как комментирует Чулавагга Аттхакатха этот фрагмент?

"But, Ananda, if women had not obtained the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the Tathagata's doctrine and discipline, the holy life would have lasted long, the true Dhamma would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that they have gotten to go forth...this holy life will not last long, the true Dhamma will last 500 years. Just as a clan in which there are many women and few men is easily plundered by robbers and bandits, in the same way, in whatever doctrine and discipline women get to go forth, the holy life does not last long... Just as a man might make an embankment in advance around a great reservoir to keep the waters from overflowing, in the same way I have set forth the eight vows of respect for bhikkhunis that they are not to transgress as long as they live."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/ch23.html

[Ассаджи]

Согласно Аттхакатхе, срок увеличился до пяти тысяч лет (vassa-sahassa) благодаря, в частности, восьми правилам для монахинь:

Mahato taḷākassa paṭikacceva āḷinti iminā  pana  etamatthaṃ  dasseti–  yathā  mahato taḷākassa āḷiyā abaddhāyapi kiñci udakaṃ tiṭṭheyya, paṭhamameva baddhāya pana yaṃ abaddhapaccayā na tiṭṭheyya, tampi tiṭṭheyya; evameva  ye ime anuppanne vatthusmiṃ paṭikacceva avītikkamanatthāya garudhammā paññattā. Tesu apaññattesupi mātugāmassa pabbajitattā pañceva vassasatāni saddhammo tiṭṭheyya. Paṭikacceva paññattattā pana aparānipi pañcavassasatāni ṭhassatīti evaṃ paṭhamaṃ vuttaṃ vassasahassameva  ṭhassatīti.  Vassasahassanti  cetaṃ  paṭisambhidāpabhedappattakhīṇāsavavaseneva vuttaṃ. Tato pana uttarimpi sukkhavipassakakhīṇāsavavasena vassasahassaṃ, anāgāmivasena  vassasahassaṃ,  sakadāgāmivasena  vassasahassaṃ,  sotāpannavasena  vassasahassanti evaṃ pañcavassasahassāni paṭivedhasaddhammo ṭhassati. Pariyattidhammopi tāniyeva. Na hi pariyattiyā asati paṭivedho atthi, nāpi pariyattiyā sati paṭivedho na hoti; liṅgaṃ pana pariyattiyā antarahitāyapi ciraṃ pavattissatīti.



The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka[49] and the Anguttara-nikaya[50] say that the eight important rules which the Buddha gave to the Bhikkhuni Sangha will make his Teachings last for five thousand years rather than five hundred. There will be one thousand years for Arahats who attain analytical insight, one thousand years for Arahats without those attainments, one thousand years for Non-returners, one thousand years for Once-returners, and one thousand years for Stream-winners. After these five thousand years of penetration of the true Doctrine (pativedha-sadhamma),[51] the accomplishment in the texts (pariyatti-dhamma) will remain. After the accomplishment in the texts disappears, the signs (linga) will continue for a long time.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Metteyya/arimet03.htm

[Ассаджи]

Есть и другие комментарии:

Firstly there are some who would take "1,000 years" as merely indicating a longish period of time and not necessarily an exact figure.

Secondly, the prediction of the Vinayadharas is not the only one on record. The commentaries report that the reciters of the Dīgha and Saṃyutta Nikāyas held a more optimistic view, in which the attainment of arahantship is possible for 4,000 years, albeit with a gradual diminution in the accompanying special powers. Then the Ābhidhammikas and reciters of the Anguttara Nikāya had yet another view; I can't remember how it goes now, except that it too is more optimistic than that of the Vinaya Atthakathā.

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=51932&view=findpost&p=713613

[Zom]

Вот, кстати, интересно.. в какой-то сутте Будда говорит о том, как учение будет исчезать - сначала то пропадет, потом это и т.д. Так вот там говорится даже с точностью до разделов Канона (какой будет исчезать первым) - как это можно понимать? Будда уже заранее знал что канон будет и знал все названия всех сутт и разделов?

[Ассаджи]

Это из позднего текста, "Анагата-вамса" ("Летопись грядущего"):

  "How will it occur? After my decease, first will occur the five disappearances. And what are the five disappearances? The disappearance of the attainments, the disappearance of the method, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the symbols, the disappearance of the relics. These are the five disappearances that are to occur.

   "First:--

   "The attainments:--Only for a thousand years from the time The Blessed One passes into Nirvana will the priests be able to acquire the analytical sciences. Then as time goes on my disciples will attain only to never returning, to once returning, to conversion. As long as such exist the disappearance of the attainments will not yet have occurred. But with the death of the last disciple that has attained to conversion the attainments will have disappeared.

   "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of the attainments.

   "Disappearance of the method:--My disciples being unable to realize the trances, the insights, the Paths, and the Fruits, will keep only the four purities of conduct. Then as time goes on they will keep only the commandments forbidding the four deadly sins. As long as there are a hundred or a thousand priests who keep the commandments forbidding the four deadly sins, the disappearance of the method will not have occurred. But when the last priest shall break the precepts, or shall die, the method will have disappeared.

   "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of the method.

   "Disappearance of learning:--As long as the text of the Three Baskets, which is the word of The Buddha, and as long as their commentaries are extant, the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. But as time goes on there will be irreligious kings of base extraction, and the courtiers and others in authority will be irreligious, and then the country people throughout the kingdom will be irreligious. On account of their irreligion the god will not rain in due season, and the crops will not flourish properly. And when the crops do not flourish, those who are wont to give the reliances to the congregation of the priests will be unable to do so any more. And the priests, not receiving the reliances, will not teach the novices, and as time goes on learning will disappear. When it disappears, it is the Great Work [i.e. Patthâna. See page xviii] that first disappears; when that has disappeared, then the Yamaka, the Kathâ-Vatthu, the Puggala-Paññatti, the Dhâtu-Kathâ, the Vibhanga, and the Dhamma-Sangani do so. When the Abhidhamma-Pitaka has disappeared, the Suttanta-Pitaka will also disappear. When the Suttanta disappears, it is first the Anguttara-Nikâya that disappears, and when the Anguttara-Nikâya disappears, then the Samyutta-Nikâya, the Majjhima-Nikâya, the Dîgha-Nikâya, the Khuddaka-Nikâya will disappear. My disciples will only remember the Jâtaka together with the Vinaya-Pitaka. It is, however, only the well-conducted priests that will remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. But as time goes on they will be unable to remember the Jâtaka, and first the Vessantara Birth-Story will disappear, and when the Vessantara Birth-Story has disappeared . . . the Apannaka Birth-Story will disappear. When the Jâtaka has disappeared, they will only remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on the Vinaya-Pitaka will disappear, but as long as a four-line stanza remains among men, so long the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. But when a pious king shall cause a purse containing a thousand pieces of money to be placed in a golden casket on the back of an elephant, and shall cause proclamation up to the second and third time to be made throughout the city to the sound of the drum, as follows: 'Anyone who knows a single stanza spoken by The BuddhasB, let him take these thousand coins together with this elephant,' and yet shall fail to find anyone who knows a four-line stanza, and shall receive again the purse containing the thousand pieces into the royal palace, then the disappearance of learning will have occurred.

   "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of learning.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits102.htm

[Ассаджи]

The Anagatavamsa is said to have been written by the author of the Mohavicchedani, Ashin Kassapa (1160-1230 A.D.)[10]

10. According to the Gandhavamsa (61, 1). See K.R. Norman, Pali Literature (Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1983), pp. 147, 161.

http://192.220.64.93/uchittin/arimet/INTRODUC.html

http://books.google.com/books?ei=u7OSSNtwjfCMAYyKzd0D&id=ItxjAAAAMAAJ&q=Anagatavamsa&pgis=1#search

[Zom]

Если это комментарий, почему же тогда стоит фраза - "O, Sariputta"..

[Ассаджи]

Это не комментарий, это текст двенадцатого века.

[Ассаджи]

Интересно, что этот текст составлен автором из Южной Индии (государство Чола).
Возможно, этому способствовал культ Майтреи в других индийских буддийских течениях того времени.

По этому поводу есть книга:
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=8Eua4CFFGBoC&printsec=frontcover

См. также тему:
http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php/topic,463.msg3097.html#msg3097

Вообще это один из самых поздних палийских текстов.

[Ассаджи]

Досточтимый Дхамманандо написал:

Regarding your other question (the one you e-mailed to me) about the decline of
the Buddha's dispensation, I hope you don't mind if I reply here as I seem to
have mislaid the e-mail.

Briefly:

1. The Pali atthakathaas and sub-commentaries are unanimous in their view that
realization (pa.tivedha) in Gotama's dispensation will last for 5,000 years and
then cease. This point is not contested by anyone.


2. However, there is no unanimity in the Atthakathaas concerning the manner of
decline during these 5,000 years. Rather, there are four quite discrepant
predictions of both the order of decline and the timescale for how long each
kind of ariyan attainment will last.

3. Buddhaghosa himself only reports the discrepant predictions without offering
any personal comment. He doesn't draw attention to the discrepancies in the
predictions, or attempt to reconcile them or advocate that one of them should be
preferred over the others.

4. In the sub-commentaries to the Tipi.taka, together with various minor Vinaya
treatise of the 12th-13th centuries, the discrepancies in the predictions are
noted and
explained as being due to their very origin: they are merely the
opinions that arose among different groups of text-reciters (bhaa.naka) and
which Buddhaghosa encountered here and there and wished to record for posterity.

5. If the sub-commentaries are right, then it follows that the status of the
predictions is not that of authoritative commentary (i.e., they are not sourced
in the atthakathaas brought to Ceylon by Mahinda.

6. It further follows that such claims as "non-returnership is the highest
ariyan attainment possible in the present age" or "attainment in the present age
is possible only by dry-visioned practice, not by jhaana" have only the
flimsiest textual support.


To Sarah, Jon, Nina, Rob, etc.

I realize the point of view I have expressed above is rather different to the
one usually voiced in DSG on this subject. However, inasmuch as this judgment of
the .Tiikaa authors has not to my knowledge been challenged by any Theravaadin
scholar of note for the last eight centuries, I believe it has a much stronger
claim to being the orthodox Theravadin view than that expressed in the Thai
article translated by Nina ("The Disappearance of Ariyans") to which readers of
DSG are often directed. The conclusion in that article is:

"It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of
thousand years in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the
excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment will
only be that of the anaagaamii."

The problem with this conclusion is that it is based upon seriously inadequate
research that doesn't take into account all of the relevant textual sources. In
particular:

1. The article's authors base their conclusion on the prediction of decline in
the Vinaya Atthakathaa, and a parallel passage in the Anguttara Atthakathaa, but
ignore a discrepant prediction also contained in the Anguttara Atthakathaa
(commentary to a nameless sutta in the Pamaadaadi Vagga of the Ekanipaata).

2. They ignore the discrepant prediction in the Samyutta Atthakathaa (commentary
to the Saddhammapa.tiruupaka Sutta).

3. They misunderstand the Digha Atthakathaa's commentary to the Sampasaadaniiya
Sutta as being relevant only to the decline of the past dispensation of Kassapa
Buddha. But the very reason for the commentary describing the decline of
pa.tivedha in Kassapa's dispensation is that the Diigha-bhaa.nakas held that
pa.tivedha in Gotama's dispensation would decline in an identical pattern (as
attested in the Anguttara and Vinaya sub-commentaries).

4. They neglect all of the sub-commentarial and Vinaya treatises in which these
discrepancies are addressed. These are chiefly the Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa to
the Vinaya Pi.taka, the .tiikaa to the Anguttara Nikaaya, and two other Vinaya
treatises: the Siimavisodhanii and Vimativinodanii.

I regret that I'm not able to give precise citations right now as I'm separated
from my library and writing from memory, but I will try to rectify this omission
when I'm back in Bangkok.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101337

[Ассаджи]

Из Sāsana Vamsa

Перевод Сорокиной О.С.
http://www.orientalstudies.ru/rus/index.php?option=com_publications&Itemid=75&pub=1265

Так в течение 5000 лет будет утверждаться проникновение в дхамму: первая тысяча лет будет достижением пати-самбхиды; вторая тысяча лет будет годами суккхавипассаков; третья тысяча лет будет годами анагаминов; четвертая тысяча лет будет годами сакадагаминов; пятая тысяча лет будет годами сотапанна.
В комментариях на Дигханикайю и Самйюттаникайю говорится, что в течение первой тысячи лет будет достижение патисамбхиды; в течение второй тысячи лет будет преобладание чхалабхинньи, в течение третьей тысячи лет — тевиджи, в течение четвертой тысячи — суккхавипассаков, в течение пятой тысячи — патимоккхи.
В комментариях на Ангуттараникайю и Вибхангу говорится, что через тысячу лет после Паринирваны Полностью Просветленного сможет возникнуть патисамбхида. После того как станет невозможно выполнять шесть абхиння, возникнут три виджи. Когда придет время и они не будут выполняться, настанет время суккхавипассаков. Так же возникнут периоды анагаминов, сакадагаминов и сотапанна . Так в различных комментариях не говорится, что с наступлением настоящего мира не сможет быть арийяпуггала.
Если благородный человек (арийя) достиг состояния арадхавипассака, он сможет стать архатом, т. е. достигнет завершения пути.
Как известно из комментариев, сколько речей, столько и толкователей. Хоть и много было различных толковании разногласий, тем не менее учение не было уничтожено, оно оставалось единым. Это важно.

[Ассаджи]

Piya Tan

The Dharma-ending Age
Who is responsible for the decline of Buddhism?
A study of Buddhist prophecy based on early Pali sources

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1.10-Dharma-ending-age-piya-proto.pdf

[raudex]

2. They ignore the discrepant prediction in the Samyutta Atthakathaa (commentary to the Saddhammapa.tiruupaka Sutta).

Поподробнее нельзя ли?

[Ассаджи]

Поподробнее нельзя ли?

В комментарии к этой сутте вначале цитруется список десяти "загрязнений способности рассмотрения" (випассан-упаккилеса) из Патисамбхидамагги:

♦ “obhāse ceva ñāṇe ca, pītiyā ca vikampati.
♦ passaddhiyā sukhe ceva, yehi cittaṃ pavedhati.
♦ “adhimokkhe ca paggāhe, upaṭṭhāne ca kampati.
♦ upekkhāvajjanāya ceva, upekkhāya ca nikantiyā.
♦ “imāni dasa ṭhānāni, paññā yassa paricitā.
♦ dhammuddhaccakusalo hoti, na ca sammoha gacchatī”ti. (paṭi. ma. 2.7).

Затем приводится перечень текстов, приписываемых Будде в течениях того времени, в том числе в Ветуллаваде:

tisso pana saṅgītiyo anāruḷhaṃ dhātukathā ārammaṇakathā asubhakathā ñāṇavatthukathā vijjākaraṇḍakoti imehi pañcahi kathāvatthūhi paribāhiraṃ guḷhavinayaṃ guḷhavessantaraṃ guḷhamahosadhaṃ vaṇṇapiṭakaṃ aṅgulimālapiṭakaṃ raṭṭhapālagajjitaṃ āḷavakagajjitaṃ vedallapiṭakanti abuddhavacanaṃ pariyattisaddhammappatirūpakaṃ nāma.

И затем идет описание этапов уменьшения достижений:

♦ atha saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hotīti adhigamasaddhammassa paṭipattisaddhammassa pariyattisaddhammassāti tividhassāpi saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti. paṭhamabodhiyañhi bhikkhū paṭisambhidappattā ahesuṃ. atha kāle gacchante paṭisambhidā pāpuṇituṃ na sakkhiṃsu, chaḷabhiññā ahesuṃ. tato cha abhiññā pāpuṇituṃ asakkontā tisso vijjā pāpuṇiṃsu. idāni kāle gacchante tisso vijjā pāpuṇituṃ asakkontā āsavakkhayamattaṃ pāpuṇissanti. tampi asakkontā anāgāmiphalaṃ, tampi asakkontā sakadāgāmiphalaṃ, tampi asakkontā sotāpattiphalaṃ. gacchante kāle sotāpattiphalampi pattuṃ na sakkhissanti. atha nesaṃ yadā vipassanā imehi upakkilesehi upakkiliṭṭhā āraddhamattāva ṭhassati, tadā adhigamasaddhammo antarahito nāma bhavissati.

♦ paṭhamabodhiyañhi bhikkhū catunnaṃ paṭisambhidānaṃ anucchavikaṃ paṭipattiṃ pūrayiṃsu. gacchante kāle taṃ asakkontā channaṃ abhiññānaṃ, tampi asakkontā tissannaṃ vijjānaṃ, tampi asakkontā arahattaphalamattassa. gacchante pana kāle arahattassa anucchavikaṃ paṭipattiṃ pūretuṃ asakkontā anāgāmiphalassa anucchavikaṃ paṭipattiṃ pūressanti, tampi asakkontā sakadāgāmiphalassa, tampi asakkontā sotāpattiphalassa. yadā pana sotāpattiphalassapi anucchavikaṃ paṭipadaṃ pūretuṃ asakkontā sīlapārisuddhimatteva ṭhassanti, tadā paṭipattisaddhammo antarahito nāma bhavissati.

Насколько я понимаю, именно на этот Комментарий ссылается Сасанавамса:
https://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic=635.msg13414#msg13414

[raudex]

Но здесь ничего нет о сроках, о годах. В чём тогда противоречие?

[Ассаджи]

Сроки подразумеваются те же, а последовательность описывается совсем другая.

[raudex]

Сроки подразумеваются те же, а последовательность описывается совсем другая.

Пардон. А где тут речь о сроках? Я не вижу. Вижу фазы упадка, и они другие, но возможно это параллельные процессы и в другом масштабе...

[Ассаджи]

Сроки есть в Комментарии к Дигха Никае:

paṭisambhidāpattehi vassasahassaṃ aṭṭhāsi. chaḷabhiññehi vassasahassaṃ. tevijjehi vassasahassaṃ. sukkhavipassakehi vassasahassaṃ. pātimokkhehi vassasahassaṃ aṭṭhāsi. pacchimakassa pana saccappaṭivedhato pacchimakassa sīlabhedato paṭṭhāya sāsanaṃ osakkitaṃ nāma hoti. tato paṭṭhāya aññassa buddhassa uppatti na nivāritā.

DN-a 3, 5. sampasādanīyasuttavaṇṇanā, tipiṭakāntaradhānakathā

В Комментарии к Ангуттара Никае:

♦ yaṃ panetaṃ sabbasuttānaṃ pariyosāne tecimaṃ saddhammaṃ antaradhāpentīti vuttaṃ, tattha pañca antaradhānāni nāma adhigamāntaradhānaṃ, paṭipattiantaradhānaṃ, pariyattiantaradhānaṃ, liṅgāntaradhānaṃ, dhātuantaradhānanti. tattha adhigamoti cattāro maggā, cattāri phalāni, catasso paṭisambhidā, tisso vijjā, cha abhiññāti. so parihāyamāno paṭisambhidāto paṭṭhāya parihāyati. buddhānaṃ hi parinibbānato vassasahassameva paṭisambhidā nibbattetuṃ sakkonti, tato paraṃ cha abhiññā, tato tāpi nibbattetuṃ asakkontā tisso vijjā nibbattenti. gacchante gacchante kāle tāpi nibbattetuṃ asakkontā sukkhavipassakā honti. eteneva upāyena anāgāmino sakadāgāmino sotāpannāti. tesu dharantesu adhigamo anantarahito nāma na hoti. pacchimakassa pana sotāpannassa jīvitakkhayena adhigamo antarahito nāma hoti. idaṃ adhigamāntaradhānaṃ nāma.

AN-a 1, 10. dutiyapamādādivaggavaṇṇanā

[raudex]

Спасибо, вот так понятнее.

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