Вступление в поток

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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #80 : 11:55 25 Ноября 2015 »

Хорошая книжка на эту тему:

Path, Fruit and Nibbāna by Kheminda Thera

https://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/path-fruit-and-nibbana/
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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #81 : 19:46 25 Ноября 2015 »

Да, "саддха-ануссари" и "дхамма-ануссари" относятся к "Благородным личностям".

Семиричная классификация "Благородной общины" приведена в Китагири сутте:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

В Китагири сутте так описываются "Следующий Дхамме" и "Следующий вере":

"And what is the individual who is a Dhamma-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But with a [sufficient] measure of reflection through discernment he has come to an agreement with the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.[9] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

В Рупа сутте говорится:

At Savatthi. "Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.002.than.html

Насчет обязательного достижения вступления в поток, - возможно, имеются в виду именно те люди, которые уверены в непостоянстве видимых форм, звуков, запахов, вкусов, тактильных ощущений и качеств, и которые практикуют под руководством Будды. Тут нужно учитывать и другие сутты.

Выше в Китагири сутте идет речь о возможности достижения высшей цели.

В Алагаддупама сутте дается такое описание:

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have abandoned the three fetters, are all stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers and conviction-followers [18] are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html

В Саракани сутте дается такое описание:

"Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he is not joyous in wisdom and has not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters he is a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. That man is entirely freed... from states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.024.wlsh.html

В итоге из сутт можно сделать традиционный вывод о том, что "саддханусари" и "дхамманусари" имеют все шансы достичь "вступления в поток" (особенно под непосредственным личным руководством Будды, как описано в Мадджхима Никае 34), но им нужно приложить для этого усилия, и не быть беспечными. Иначе они достигнут благополучного перерождения только в следующей жизни.

Как пишет досточтимый Аггачитта:

So even if you do not become a sotapanna, but if you accept and apply the teachings you come under this category. However, unlike the ariyas who are freed from rebirth in the lower realms, this category of people is assured of such a favourable rebirth in the next life only.

Even if one does not become a sotapanna, but still has faith in the Dhamma when one dies, one is assured of not going to the woeful states in the immediate succeeding life.

http://sasanarakkha.org/dhamma/2003/06/pathama-saranani-sakka-sutta.shtml
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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #82 : 10:04 13 Октября 2017 »

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3. Saradasuttaṃ - In Autumn

“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, saradasamaye viddhe vigatavalāhake deve ādicco nabhaṃ abbhus­sakka­māno sabbaṃ ākāsagataṃ tamagataṃ abhivihacca bhāsate ca tapate ca virocati ca.

95. Bhikkhus, in Autumn when there is a clear sky, without a single cloud and the sun rising high up in the sky destroys all the darkness and burns and scorches every thing.

Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, yato ariyasāvakassa virajaṃ vītamalaṃ dhammacakkhuṃ uppajjati, saha dassanuppādā, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti—sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlab­bata­parāmāso.

In the same manner to the noble disciple there arises the eye of the Teaching and together with that arising, three bonds get dispelled, the view of a self, doubts and taking virtues as the ultimate end of the holy life.

Athāparaṃ dvīhi dhammehi niyyāti abhijjhāya ca byāpādena ca. So vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Tasmiñce, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako kālaṃ kareyya, natthi taṃ saṃyojanaṃ yena saṃyojanena saṃyutto ariyasāvako puna imaṃ lokaṃ āgaccheyyā”ti.

After that the leading is by covetousness and hatred. He secluding the mind from sensual and demeritorious thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. If the noble disciple dies at that time he has no bonds on account of which he is to be born in this world .

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikanipata/010-lonaphalavaggo-e.html

В начале Сарада сутты речь идет о достижении "вступления в поток", ведь именно при этом устраняются первые три оковы, как говорится в Патхамасиккха сутте:

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“With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.87

"Вступивший в поток" развил нравственность, но лишь отчасти развил собранность ума и мудрость, как описывается в Саупадисеса сутте:

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    Puna caparaṃ, sāriputta, idhekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṃ mattaso kārī, paññāya mattaso kārī. So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, sattak­khat­tu­paramaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.

    Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the destruction of three fetters, this person is a seven-times-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering.

    Anguttara Nikaya 9.12
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanipata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.html

Для продвижения дальше "вступившему в поток" нужно развить собранность ума (самадхи). Соответственно, как описывается далее в Сарада сутте, он достигает первой джханы, и в ней устраняет две последующих оковы. Если он умирает в состоянии без пяти оков, то соответственно может достичь "не-возвращения". Ведь "не-возвращающийся" - этот как раз тот, кто устранил пять оков, как описывается в Патхамасиккха сутте:

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“With the wasting away of the five lower fetters, he is one going upstream to the Peerless [the Akaniṭṭha heaven, the highest of the Pure Abodes.]

https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.87

И "не-возвращающийся" - это тот, кто полностью развил нравственность и собранность ума (в данном случае - первую джхану), и лишь отчасти развил мудрость, как описывается в Саупадисеса сутте:

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a certain person is complete in virtues, complete in concentration and incomplelte in wisdom. Destroying the five lower bonds binding him to the sensual world, he stations himself in the vicinity of extinction

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanipata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.html
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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #83 : 08:48 25 Сентября 2018 »

Описание вступления в поток в Косамбия сутте:

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“And how is there the view that is noble, leading outward, that leads those who act in accordance with it to the right ending of suffering & stress?

“There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, considers thus: ‘Is there any internal subjugation unabandoned in me that, subjugated by which, my subjugated mind would not know or see things as they have come to be?’ If a monk is subjugated by sensual passion, monks, then his mind is subjugated. If he is subjugated by ill will, then his mind is subjugated. If he is subjugated by sloth & torpor, then his mind is subjugated. If he is subjugated by restlessness & anxiety, then his mind is subjugated. If he is subjugated by uncertainty, then his mind is subjugated. If a monk is absorbed in speculation about this world, then his mind is enthralled. If a monk is absorbed in speculation about the other world, then his mind is subjugated. If a monk is given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing others with weapons of the mouth, then his mind is subjugated.

“He discerns that, ‘There is no subjugation unabandoned in me that, subjugated by which, my subjugated mind would not know and see things as they have come to be. My mind is well directed for awakening to the truths.’ This is the first knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘When I cultivate, develop, and pursue this view, do I personally obtain tranquility, do I personally obtain unbinding?’

“He discerns that, ‘When I cultivate, develop, and pursue this view, I personally obtain tranquility, I personally obtain unbinding.’ This is the second knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘Is there, outside of this (Dhamma & Vinaya), any other contemplative or brahman endowed with the sort of view with which I am endowed?’

“He discerns that, ‘There is no other contemplative or brahman outside (the Dhamma & Vinaya) endowed with the sort of view with which I am endowed.’ This is the third knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘I am endowed with the character of a person consummate in view?’3 And what, monks, is the character of a person consummate in view? This is the character of a person consummate in view: Although he may commit some kind of offence for which a means of rehabilitation has been laid down, still he immediately confesses, reveals, and discloses it to the Teacher or to observant companions in the holy life; having done that, he undertakes restraint for the future. Just as a young, tender infant lying on his back, when he has hit a live ember with his hand or his foot, immediately draws back; in the same way, this is the character of a person consummate in view: Although he may commit some kind of offence for which a means of rehabilitation has been laid down, still he immediately confesses, reveals, and discloses it to the Teacher or to observant companions in the holy life; having done that, he undertakes restraint for the future.

“He discerns that, ‘I am endowed with the character of a person consummate in view.’ This is the fourth knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘I am endowed with the character of a person consummate in view?’ And what, monks, is the character of a person consummate in view? This is the character of a person consummate in view: Although he may be active in the various affairs of his companions in the holy life, he still has a keen regard for training in heightened virtue, training in heightened mind, & training in heightened discernment. Just as a cow with a new calf watches after her calf all the while she is grazing on grass, in the same way, this is the character of a person consummate in view: Although he may be active in the various affairs of his companions in the holy life, he still has a keen regard for training in heightened virtue, training in heightened mind, & training in heightened discernment.

“He discerns that, ‘I am endowed with the character of a person consummate in view.’ This is the fifth knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘I am endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view?’ And what, monks, is the strength of a person consummate in view? This is the strength of a person consummate in view: When the Dhamma & Vinaya proclaimed by the Tathāgata is being taught, he heeds it, gives it attention, engages it with all his mind, hears the Dhamma with eager ears.

“He discerns that, ‘I am endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view.’ This is the sixth knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘I am endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view?’ And what, monks, is the strength of a person consummate in view? This is the strength of a person consummate in view: When the Dhamma & Vinaya proclaimed by the Tathāgata is being taught, he gains understanding in the meaning, gains understanding in the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma.

“He discerns that, ‘I am endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view.’ This is the seventh knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

“A disciple of the noble ones thus endowed with seven factors has well examined the character for the realization of the fruit of stream entry. A disciple of the noble ones thus endowed with seven factors is endowed with the fruit of stream entry.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN48.html

Или в переводе Хорнер:

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And what, monks, is that view which is ariyan, leading onwards, and which leads him who acts according to it to the complete destruction of anguish? Herein, monks, a monk who is forest-gone or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty place, reflects like this; ‘Now, have I a subjective obsession, not got rid of, owing to which I, if my mind were obsessed by it, could not know, could not see (things) as they really are? (1) If, monks, a monk is obsessed by addiction to sense-pleasures, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (2) If, monks, a monk is obsessed by malevolence, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (3) If, monks, a monk is obsessed by sloth and torpor, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (4) If, monks, a monk is obsessed by restlessness and worry, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (5) If, monks, a monk is obsessed by doubt, to this extent is his mind obsessed, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (6) If, monks, a monk centres his thought on this world, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (7) If, monks, a monk centres his thought on the world beyond, to this extent is his mind obsessed. (8) If, monks, a monk, disputatious, quarrelsome, contentious, lives wounding with the weapons of his tongue, to this extent is his mind obsessed. He comprehends thus: ‘I have no subjective obsession, not got rid of, owing to which I, if my mind were obsessed by it, could not know, could not see (things) as they really are; my thought is well directed towards awakening as to the truths.’ This is the first knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

And again, monks, the ariyan disciple reflects thus: ‘While I am following, developing, maturing this view, I gain calm for myself, I gain quenchedness for myself.’ He comprehends thus: ‘While I am following, developing, maturing this view, I gain calm for myself, I gain quenchedness for myself.’ This is the second knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

And again, monks, an ariyan disciple reflects thus: ‘Is there another recluse or brahman, outside here, who is possessed of a view such as I am possessed of?’ He comprehends thus: ‘There is no other recluse or brahman, outside here, who is possessed of a view such as I am possessed of.’ This is the third knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

And again, monks, the ariyan disciple reflects thus: ‘Am I too possessed of the kind of propriety a man is possessed of who is endowed with right view?’ And what kind of propriety, monks, is a man possessed of who is endowed with (right) view? This is propriety, monks, for a man endowed with (right) view: Whatever kind of offence he falls into he makes known the removal of such an offence, for he confesses it, discloses it, declares it quickly to the Teacher or to intelligent fellow Brahma-farers; having confessed, disclosed and declared it, he comes to restraint in the future.

Just as an innocent little baby lying on its back quickly draws back its hand or foot if it has touched a live ember, even so, monks, this is propriety for a man endowed with (right) view: Whatever kind of offence he falls into he makes known the removal of such an offence, for he confesses it, discloses it, declares it quickly to the Teacher or to intelligent fellow Brahma-farers; having confessed, disclosed and declared it, he comes to restraint in the future. He comprehends thus: ‘I too am possessed of the kind of propriety which a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view.’ This is the fourth knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

And again, monks, the ariyan disciple reflects thus: ‘Am I too possessed of the kind of propriety a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view?’ And what kind of propriety, monks, is a man possessed of who is endowed with (right) view? This is propriety, monks, for a man endowed with (right) view: If he is zealous concerning those manifold things which are to be done for fellow Brahma-farers, he then becomes of strong aspiration for training in the higher moral habit, for training in the higher thought, for training in the higher intuitive wisdom.

Just as a cow with a young calf, while she is pulling the grass keeps an eye on the calf, even so, monks, this is propriety for a man endowed with (right) view: If he is zealous concerning those manifold things which are to be done for fellow Brahma-farers, he then becomes of strong aspiration for training in the higher moral habit, for training in the higher thought, for training in the higher intuitive wisdom. He comprehends thus: ‘I too am possessed of the kind of propriety a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view.’ This is the fifth knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

And again, monks, the ariyan disciple reflects thus: ‘Am I too possessed of the kind of strength a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view?’ And what kind of strength, monks, is a man possessed of who is endowed with (right) view? This is strength, monks, for a man endowed with (right) view: While Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata are being taught, having applied himself, paying attention, concentrating with all the mind, he listens to Dhamma with ready ear. He comprehends thus: ‘I too am possessed of the kind of strength a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view.’ This is the sixth knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

And again, monks, the ariyan disciple reflects thus: ‘Am I too possessed of the kind of strength a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view?’ And what kind of strength, monks, is a man possessed of who is endowed with (right) view? This is strength, monks, for a man endowed with (right) view: While Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata are being taught, he acquires knowledge of the goal, he acquires knowledge of Dhamma, he acquires the rapture that is connected with Dhamma. He comprehends thus: ‘I too am possessed of the kind of strength a man is possessed of who is endowed with (right) view.’ This monks, is the seventh knowledge won by him, ariyan, transcendental, not in common with average men.

Thus, monks, propriety has come to be well sought by an ariyan disciple who is possessed of seven factors for realising the fruit of stream-attainment. Possessed of seven factors thus, monks, an ariyan disciple is possessed of the fruit of stream-attainment.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn48/en/horner
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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #84 : 09:38 09 Ноября 2019 »

Тханиссаро Бхиккху о значении джан для разных уровней Пробуждения:
из книги "Крылья пробуждения" 
https://dhamma.ru/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/3f.htm

Роль джханы как условия для тpансцендентного (локуттаpа) pаспознавания – один из самых споpных вопpосов в тpадиции Тхеpавада. В совpеменных тpудах отстаиваются тpи основные позиции. В пеpвой, в соответствии с тpадицией комментаpиев, утвеpждается, что джхана не обязательна для любого из четыpех уpовней Пpобуждения, и что есть класс личностей – так называемые медитиpующие "сухого видения-как-есть" – котоpые "освобождены с помощью pаспознавания", на основе меньшего, чем в джхане, уpовня сосpедоточения. Те, кто пpидеpживается втоpой позиции, цитиpуя фpагмент из Канона [A.III.88; MFU, стp. 103] о том, что сосpедоточение pазвивается до совеpшенства только на уpовне невозвpащения, считают, что джхана необходима для достижения не-возвpащения и аpхатства, но не для пpедшествующих уpовней Пpобуждения. Те, кто занимает тpетью позицию, говоpят, что для всех четыpех уpовней Пpобуждения необходимо достижение по кpайней меpе пеpвого уpовня джханы.

 
Тексты Канона подтвеpждают только тpетью позицию, но не две остальных. Как отмечается в N106, достижение вхождения в поток имеет восемь фактоpов, один из котоpых – пpавильное сосpедоточение, опpеделяемое как джхана. Действительно, в соответствии с этой сутpой, джхана игpает ключевую pоль в пути вхождения в поток. Кpоме того, в Каноне нет ни одного фpагмента, котоpый бы описывал pазвитие тpансцендентного pаспознавания без хотя бы небольшого владения джханой. Высказывание о том, что сосpедоточение pазвивается в совеpшенстве только на уpовне не-возвpащения нужно понимать, учитывая pазличие между совеpшенным овладением и достижением. Вошедший в поток может достичь джханы, не овладев ей в совеpшенстве; pаспознавание, pазвиваемое в ходе полного овладения пpактикой джханы, пpиведет его на уpовень не-возвpащения. Что касается теpмина "освобожденный с помощью pаспознавания", то во фpагменте N168 объясняется, что им обозначаются люди, котоpые стали Аpхатами, не испытав четыpех бесфоpменных джхан. Этот теpмин не относится к людям, не испытавшим джхану.
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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #85 : 13:55 14 Ноября 2019 »

Роль джханы как условия для тpансцендентного (локуттаpа) pаспознавания – один из самых споpных вопpосов в тpадиции Тхеpавада. В совpеменных тpудах отстаиваются тpи основные позиции. В пеpвой, в соответствии с тpадицией комментаpиев, утвеpждается, что джхана не обязательна для любого из четыpех уpовней Пpобуждения, и что есть класс личностей – так называемые медитиpующие "сухого видения-как-есть" – котоpые "освобождены с помощью pаспознавания", на основе меньшего, чем в джхане, уpовня сосpедоточения. Те, кто пpидеpживается втоpой позиции, цитиpуя фpагмент из Канона [A.III.88; MFU, стp. 103] о том, что сосpедоточение pазвивается до совеpшенства только на уpовне невозвpащения, считают, что джхана необходима для достижения не-возвpащения и аpхатства, но не для пpедшествующих уpовней Пpобуждения. Те, кто занимает тpетью позицию, говоpят, что для всех четыpех уpовней Пpобуждения необходимо достижение по кpайней меpе пеpвого уpовня джханы.

 
Тексты Канона подтвеpждают только тpетью позицию, но не две остальных. Как отмечается в N106, достижение вхождения в поток имеет восемь фактоpов, один из котоpых – пpавильное сосpедоточение, опpеделяемое как джхана.

Всё-таки, если быть точным, в отрывке, на который ссылается досточтимый, говорится о Восьмеричном пути в целом, а не о том, что у вхождения в поток восемь факторов:

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The Buddha: 'The stream, the stream,' it is said. Now what is the stream?

Ven. Sāriputta: Just this noble eightfold path is the stream: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

The Buddha: Well said, Sāriputta, well said. Just this noble eightfold path is the stream... 'Streamwinner, streamwinner,' it is said. Now what is a streamwinner?

Ven. Sāriputta: Whoever is endowed with this noble eightfold path is called a 'streamwinner.'

The Buddha: Well said, Sāriputta, well said. Whoever is endowed with this noble eightfold path is called a 'streamwinner.'

— SN 55.5

Из Нандия сутты:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.040.than.html

можно сделать вывод, что у вступившего в поток еще нет восторга джханы, и ему еще предстоит этого достичь.
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Re: Вступление в поток
« Ответ #86 : 15:33 15 Ноября 2019 »

Досточтимый Дхаммавуддхо пишет:

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SOTAPANNA ATTAINMENT DOES NOT NEED JHANA

In  AN  3.86 and  9.12,  the  Buddha  said  that  Sotapanna  and Sakadagamin  (First  and  Second  Fruit  Ariyas)  have  perfect morality. The third fruition Anagamin has perfect morality and perfect  concentration.  The  fourth  fruition  Arahant  has  perfect morality, perfect concentration and perfect wisdom.

These  two  Suttas  indicate  that  the  attainment  of  the Anagamin and    the    Arahant    stages    must    have    perfect concentration,  which  is  always  defined  as  the  four  jhanas  or one pointedness of mind in the Suttas (e.g. SN 45.8 and 45.28).  One  pointedness  of  mind  is  also  defined  as  the  four  jhanas  in SN 48.10. This  is  again  confirmed  by MN 64  which  says outright that it is impossible to eliminate the five lower fetters, i.e. become  an  Anagamin  or  Arahant, without  the jhanas.  It  is interesting to note that the Sotapanna and Sakadagamin do not typically  have  perfect  concentration, (i.e.  4th jhana  is  not  a prerequisite).  The  difference  between  these  two  attainments  is that  the  Sakadagamin  has  reduced  lust,  hatred  and  delusion compared with the Sotapanna (see AN 3.86 and 9.12).

The  reduction  of  lust,  hatred  and  delusion  requires  a certain   amount   of   Samadhi   (Concentration)   because   these defilements are connected to the five hindrances (attainment of jhana results in the abandonment of the hindrances – see DN 2).  Two  of  these  hindrances  are  sensual  desire  (similar  to  lust), and  ill  will  (related  to  hatred).  Thus  Sakadagamin  attainment would  need  the  first,  second,  or  third  jhana. In  SN  55.40  it  is said that there are two types of Sotapanna: the diligent and the negligent.   The   diligent,   after   attaining   Sotapanna,   makes further  effort  to attain  Jhana.  The  negligent  does  not.  This implies   that   both   do   not   possess   Jhana. This   further corroborates the point that stream entry can be attained by just listening to the Dhamma with thorough focused attention.

And we do find in the Suttas and Vinaya that many who came to  listen  to  the  Buddha  for  the  first  time  attained  stream entry.    Also,  SN 55.2  states  that  the  characteristics  of  the Sotapanna   are   unshakable   confidence   in   the   Buddha,   the Dhamma,  and  the  Sangha,  as  well  as  Perfect  Morality – no mention of meditation.

https://vbgnet.org/Articles/Liberation-5thEdition20190414-English-Dhammavuddho.pdf#page=13
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