"Vitakka" и "vicāra"
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #20 : 09:59 07 Января 2015 »

Еще из "Вопросов Милинды":

Царь молвил: «Почтенный Нагасена, каково свойство задумывания?»— «Свойство задумывания — вставлять, государь».— «Приведи пример».— «Например, государь, со всех сторон обте­санное бревно плотник вставляет в сруб. [Вот так же, государь, подготовленное другими дхармами задумыванием вставляется в мысль.] Вот так, государь, свойство задумывания — встав­лять».— «Прекрасно, почтенный Нагасена». Царь молвил: «Почтенный Нагасена, каково свойство продумывания?» — «Свойство продумывания — притираться мыслью28, государь».— «Приведи пример».— «Например, госу­дарь, если ударить по металлическому блюду, то оно после гу­дит, отзывается. Здесь, государь, удару следует уподоблять задумывание, отзвуку уподоблять продумывание»29.— «Пре­красно, почтенный Нагасена».
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #21 : 10:01 30 Декабря 2015 »

Досточтимый Суджато пишет:

There is a kind of lifting of the mind onto an object. This is normally quite subtle, and we don’t notice it because we are interested in the words. It becomes more obvious sometimes when you try to think about something, but your mind is not really interested. It’s as if you keep moving the mind towards that topic, but nothing much happens. You can also feel it when the words stop. The ‘thought’ in some sense is there, apart from the verbalizations. It’s a subverbal thought, a placing or hovering of the mind in a certain way.

This is what vitakka refers to in jhana. This is the subtle aspect of ‘thought’ that is carried over into jhana, when the coarse aspect, the verbalization, is left behind.

And as with vitakka, so with vicara. Vicara is the ‘exploring’ of something, and in ordinary language refers to wandering about a place on foot. Psychologically, it normally means a more sustained reflection or examination of a thought, a keeping in mind of the topic that vitakka has brought to mind. In jhana, it follows the same process. The coarse verbal reflection is long gone, and in its place is the gentle holding or pressing of the mind with its object.

Early definitions

Unfortunately, there are no further definitions of these terms in the very early strata of texts. However, in the next strata, the late sutta/early Abhidhamma phase, we do have definitions. Our first example comes from a sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya; on text-critical grounds, however, it seems this should be viewed as a proto-Abhidhamma work. Sankappa is defined in the Mahacattarisaka Sutta (MN 117) as takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro. Vitakka is included in this definition; and notice the last term, cetaso abhiniropanā, which means ‘application of the heart’.

The earliest Abhidhamma text, the Vibhanga, gives a similar definition of vitakka in the context of jhana: takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā sammāsaṅkappo. This text also adds a similar definition of vicara: cāro vicāro anuvicāro upavicāro cittassa anusandhanatā anupekkhanatā. Notice the last terms here: ‘sustained (anu-) application (sandh) of the mind, sustained (equanimous) observation (ikkh)’.

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/why-vitakka-doesnt-mean-thinking-in-jhana/
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #22 : 10:06 30 Декабря 2015 »

Досточтимый Бодхи пишет:

In MLDB I rendered vitakka and vicāra respectively as “applied thought” and “sustained thought.” In this translation they become “thought” and “examination.” The latter is surely closer to the actual meaning of vicāra. When vitakka is translated as “thought,” however, a word of caution is necessary. In common usage, vitakka corresponds so closely to our “thought” that no other rendering seems feasible; for example, in kāmavitakka, sensual thought, or its opposite, nekkhammavitakka, thought of renunciation. When, however, vitakka and vicāra occur as constituents of the first jhāna, they do not exercise the function of discursive thinking characteristic of ordinary consciousness. Here, rather, vitakka is the mental factor with the function of applying the mind to the object, and vicāra the factor with the function of examining the object nondiscursively in order to anchor the mind in the object.
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #23 : 11:27 06 Июля 2017 »

Гавриил пишет:

In post #24 I referenced a view that basically vitakka-vicara means to immerse in the recollection (sati) of a meditation object. I'd like to back this up by a  sutta reference from DN 33, DN 34, AN 5.26, AN 5.73, AN 5.74, AN 6.51, AN 6.56:

...he applies his thought to the Norm as he has learnt and got it by memory, and sustains protracted meditation on it and contemplates it in mind (RD, DN 33)

...he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it (Walshe, DN 33)

...he ponders, examines, and mentally inspects the Dhamma... (BB, AN 5.26)

... dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati

In all cases it is about dhamma that a bhikkhu heard.
The PED gives us for anupekkhati 'carefully considers'. Or more literally 'continuously-sees-closely'

The meaning is clearly that one does mental operations directed to dhamma (teaching). It doesn't tell us what vitakka-vicara are but gives us the context to where they are directed, namely teaching-aspects, and not any kind of thoughts. This view also includes non-verbal operations since to reflect dhamma doesn't necessarily mean with words. This again is close to seeing vitakka-vicara as penetrating a meditation object as expressed in post #24.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/vitakka-vicara-jhana-factors/2589/400
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #24 : 13:18 11 Июля 2017 »

Френк Куан пишет:

I don't know which text is earlier, KN Pe [Peṭakopadesa], or Ab Vb [Abhidhamma Vibhanga], but here are the interesting things I noticed.  Kn Pe seems to agree 100% with a straightforward of EBT [Early Buddhist text] first jhana V&V [vitakka&vicāra].

What's interesting is Ab Vb also agrees, but adds a couple of things:

Цитировать
appanā byappanā
   fixation, focussing,


But the other items on the Ab Vb list, especially samma sankappo agreees with KN Pe.

So here's what's really interesting, in Vism., for the meditation topics that can get you into first jhana, AFAIK none of them take the broader interpretation of their own Abhidhamma definition of V&V! They all are using a kasina based samatha kung fu, fixity and focussing.

Vimt. [Vimuttimagga] on the other hand, in their jhana section they follow the KN Pe definition. But since the jhana is under earth kasina, it's  hard to tell if it's using the full range of V&V there. Certainly under 16 APS (anapana) V&V would evaluate the breath using the non-fixity aspects of vicara.

KN Pe: Peṭakopadesa 7.72, 1st jhāna commentary
     
KN-Pe is the earliest detailed word commentary on the standard jhāna formula: Peṭakopadesa 7.72

(first paragraph 72. talks about tīṇi akusala-mūlāni (3 unskillful roots) and 5niv (hindrances) removal.

         
tattha a-lobhassa pāripūriyā nekkhamma-vitakkaṃ vitakketi.         Here, for non-greed fulfillment, renunciation-thoughts (he) thinks.       
       
tattha a-dosassa pāripūriyā abyāpāda-vitakkaṃ vitakketi.         for non-hatred fulfillment, renunciation-thoughts (he) thinks.     
         
tattha a-mohassa pāripūriyā avihiṃsā-vitakkaṃ vitakketi.         for non-delusion fulfillment, renunciation-thoughts (he) thinks.
                                     
tattha a-lobhassa pāripūriyā vivitto hoti kāmehi.         “Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures.         
     
tattha a-dosassa pāripūriyā         Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and               
a-mohassa pāripūriyā ca vivitto hoti pāpakehi akusalehi dhammehi,         fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena.
             
savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ         And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna,               
paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.         which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
                                       
vitakkāti tayo vitakkā —         Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely               
nekkhammavitakko         the thought of renunciation,               
abyāpādavitakko         the thought of non-aversion,               
avihiṃsāvitakko.         and the thought of harmlessness.                                       
tattha paṭham-ābhinipāto vitakko,         Here, directed thought is the first instance               
paṭiladdhassa vicaraṇaṃ vicāro.         while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received.               
yathā puriso dūrato purisaṃ passati āgacchantaṃ,         Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance               
na ca tāva jānāti eso itthīti vā purisoti vā         he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man,               
yadā tu paṭilabhati itthīti vā purisoti vā         but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or               
evaṃ vaṇṇoti vā evaṃ saṇṭhānoti vā         that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,”               
ime vitakkayanto uttari upaparikkhanti         then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes,               
kiṃ nu kho ayaṃ sīlavā udāhu dussīlo         “How then, is he ethical or unethical,               
aḍḍho vā duggatoti vā.         rich or poor?”               
evaṃ vicāro         This is examination.               
vitakke appeti,         With directed thought he fixes.               
vicāro cariyati ca anuvattati ca.         With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].”       

Notes of interest:

V&V “fixes” and “turning over” have been reinterpreted in the Vsm.

Abhidhamma Vibhanga 12,  V&V in jhānas

first jhāna V&V, (J2 same def)

565. “savitakkaṃ savicāran”ti         “Accompanied by initial application, accompanied by sustained application” means:               
atthi vitakko, atthi vicāro.         There is initial application; there is sustained application.                                       
tattha katamo vitakko?         Therein what is initial application?               
yo takko vitakko saṅkappo         That which is mentation, thinking, thought,               
appanā byappanā         fixation, focussing,               
cetaso abhiniropanā sammāsaṅkappo —         application of the mind, right thought.               
ayaṃ vuccati “vitakko”.         This is called initial application.                                       

tattha katamo vicāro?         Therein what is sustained application?               
yo cāro vicāro anuvicāro upavicāro         That which is searching, examining, constant examining,               
cittassa anusandhanatā anupekkhanatā —         scrutinizing, constant connection of (and) constant inspection by consciousness.               
ayaṃ vuccati vicāro.         This is called sustained application.       

Notes of interest:

● sammāsaṅkappo, saṅkappo, seem to be on the same link of the food chain as vitakka, not below or above it.
● this may be foreshadowing what upekkha does in 3rd and 4th jhana (cittassa anusandhanatā anupekkhanatā —)

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/v-v-vitakka-vicara-in-abhidhamma-vibhanga-and-kn-petako-to-vism/5939
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #25 : 06:45 28 Ноября 2017 »

В Вимутти-магге Ch XI говорится:

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Initial application of thought is mental action. It is likened to the reciting of discourses by heart. Perception is its near cause. Sustained application of thought is investigation of objects by the mind. It is likened to thought that follows the sense. Initial application of thought is its near cause.

Я тут вспоминаю свою рефлексию по поводу выразительного чтения текста для постороннего слушателя, к примеру - сказку для детей.
Ведь декламация сутты по памяти - это практически "считывание из памяти", то есть то же чтение.
Так вот зачастую прочитаешь так значительный объем текста вслух, с выражением и на разные голоса, с интонацией и с нужными паузами, и потом понимаешь, что совершенно не можешь пересказать, о чем там шла речь, причем чем больше стараешься для слушателя, тем меньше можешь сказать, о чем же читал.
Получается, что здесь как раз присутствует в сильной мере витакка, но не участвует должным образом вичара.
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #26 : 20:42 20 Августа 2018 »

Regarding directed thought and evaluation in the first jhāna formula, Peṭakopadesa 7.72 offers the following word-commentary:

Tatthaalobhassa pāripūriyā nekkhammavitakkaṃ vitakketi. Tattha adosassa pāripūriyā abyāpādavitakkaṃ vitakketi. Tattha amohassa pāripūriyā avihiṃsāvitakkaṃ vitakketi.

   Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.

Tattha alobhassa pāripūriyā vivitto hoti kāmehi. Tattha adosassa pāripūriyā amohassa pāripūriyā ca vivitto hoti pāpakehi akusalehi dhammehi, savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

    Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena. And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

Vitakkāti tayo vitakkā – nekkhammavitakko abyāpādavitakko avihiṃsāvitakko.

    Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely the thought of renunciation, the thought of non-aversion, and the thought of harmlessness.

Tattha paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, paṭiladdhassa vicaraṇaṃ vicāro.

    Here, directed thought is the first instance while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received.

Yathā puriso dūrato purisaṃ passati āgacchantaṃ, na ca tāva jānāti eso itthīti vā purisoti vā yadā tu paṭilabhati itthīti vā purisoti vā evaṃ vaṇṇoti vā evaṃ saṇṭhānoti vā ime vitakkayanto uttari upaparikkhanti kiṃ nu kho ayaṃ sīlavā udāhu dussīlo aḍḍho vā duggatoti vā. Evaṃ vicāro vitakke appeti, vicāro cariyati ca anuvattati ca.

    Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the recognition] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

Yathā pakkhī pubbaṃ āyūhati pacchā nāyūhati yathā āyūhanā evaṃ vitakko, yathā pakkhānaṃ pasāraṇaṃ evaṃ vicāro anupālati vitakketi vicarati vicāreti. Vitakkayati vitakketi, anuvicarati vicāreti. Kāmasaññāya paṭipakkho vitakko, byāpādasaññāya vihiṃsasaññāya ca paṭipakkho vicāro. Vitakkānaṃ kammaṃ akusalassa amanasikāro, vicārānaṃ kammaṃ jeṭṭhānaṃ saṃvāraṇā.

    And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

Yathā paliko tuṇhiko sajjhāyaṃ karoti evaṃ vitakko, yathā taṃyeva anupassati evaṃ vicāro. Yathā apariññā evaṃ vitakko. Yathā pariññā evaṃ vicāro. Niruttipaṭisambhidāyañca paṭibhānapaṭisambhidāyañca vitakko, dhammapaṭisambhidāyañca atthapaṭisambhidāyañca vicāro. Kallitā kosallattaṃ cittassa vitakko, abhinīhārakosallaṃ cittassa vicāro . Idaṃ kusalaṃ idaṃ akusalaṃ idaṃ bhāvetabbaṃ idaṃ pahātabbaṃ idaṃ sacchikātabbanti vitakko, yathā pahānañca bhāvanā ca sacchikiriyā ca evaṃ vicāro.

    Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it. Directed thought is like a lack of full comprehension (apariññā). Evaluation is like full comprehension (pariññā). Directed thought is the analytical understanding of language (niruttipaṭisambhidā) and the analytical understanding of knowledge (paṭibhānapaṭisambhidā). Evaluation is the analytical understanding of dhamma (dhammapaṭisambhidā) and the analytical understanding of meaning (atthapaṭisambhidā). Directed thought is the mind’s skill in pleasantness. Evaluation is the mind’s skill in endeavor. Directed thought is about this being skillful, this unskillful, about this to be developed, this to be abandoned, this to be verified. Evaluation is like the abandoning, the development, the verification.

 Imesu vitakkavicāresu ṭhitassa duvidhaṃ dukkhaṃ na uppajjati kāyikañca cetasikañca; duvidhaṃ sukhaṃ uppajjati kāyikañca cetasikañca. Iti vitakkajanitaṃ cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ pīti kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ kāyikoyeva. Yā tattha cittassa ekaggatā, ayaṃ samādhi. Iti paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ pañcaṅgavippahīnaṃ pañcaṅgasamannāgataṃ.


Полный отрывок из Петакопадесы (в переводе досточимого Нянамоли) с объяснением описания четырех джхан в суттах:

[4 Meditations—Word-Commentary
1st Meditation
]
    576. Herein, for the fulfilling of non-greed he thinks renunciation-thinking. Herein, for the fulfilling of non-hate he thinks non-ill-will-thinking. Herein, for the fulfilling of non-delusion he thinks non-cruelty-thinking.

    577. Herein, for the fulfilling of non-greed he is < secluded from sensual desires> (§ 550). Herein, for the fulfilling of non-hate and for the fulfilling of non-delusion he is < secluded from unprofitable ideas > (§ 550). [142] And so < he enters upon and abides in the first meditation, which is accompanied by thinking and exploring, with happiness and pleasure born of seclusion> (§ 550).

   578. " Thinking " there are three kinds of thinking, namely renunciation-thinking, non-ill-will-thinking, and non-cruelty-thinking (D. iii, 215).

    579. Herein, " thinking " is the first instance while "exploring " is the exploration of what is got thus.

    580. Just as, when a man sees a man coming in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man ; but when he has got [the perception] that " it is a woman " or that " it is a man " or that " it is one of such colour (caste) " or that " it is one of such shape (figure) ", then when he is thinking [this] he further scrutinizes [as follows] "How then, is he virtuous or unvirtuous, rich or poor ? ", such is exploring. In thinking he fixes, in exploring he wanders about [his fixed object] and turns [it] over.

    581. And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and afterwards no more accumulates [speed, when gliding], so too, thinking is like the accumulation [of speed], and like the out-stretchedness of the [gliding bird's] wings is exploring, [which] keeps preserving the thinkings and keeps preserving the explorings.

   582. [Such] thinking is the opposite of perception of sensual desires ; [such] exploring is the opposite of perception of ill will and of perception of cruelty. The action of [such] kinds of thinking is non-attention to the unprofitable. The action of [such] kinds of exploring is the restraining of the " forerunners ".

    583. Thinking is like a text-reciter who does his recital silently : exploring is like his simply contemplating it. Thinking is like non-diagnosis ; exploring is like diagnosis. Thinking is the Discrimination of Language (§ 104) and the Discrimination of Perspicuity (§ 106) ; exploring is the Discrimination of Ideas (§ 103) and the Discrimination of Meanings (§ 105). Thinking is cognizance's skill in health ; exploring is cognizance's skill in directive-guidance. [143] Thinking is about this being profitable, this unprofitable, about this to be kept in being, this to be abandoned, this to be verified ; exploring is like the abandoning, the keeping in being, the verifying.

    584. The twofold, bodily and mental, pain does not arise (cf. § 588) in one steadied in these types of (a) thinking and (b) exploring, and the twofold pleasure, bodily and mental, does arise. The mental pleasure thus sprung from thinking is (c) happiness, while (d) the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling. The (e) unification here is concentration (see § 564). That is how the first meditation has abandoned five factors and possesses five factors (§§ 552, 564).

[2nd Meditation]
    585. With constant cultivation of this same thinking and exploring his mentality becomes inclined thereto. Then the thinking and exploring seem gross to him, and the renunciation-born pleasure-of-happiness also is gross, and so concentration-born (c) happiness and (d) delight are born instead.

    586. His heart [which in the first meditation] had exploring's object becomes (f) confident (clarified) in itself with the pacification of these [namely thinking and exploring]. The two ideas, namely thinking and exploring, need no longer be recollected, and what now can be served is the presently arisen singleness due to their quieting, which singleness is (e) unification.  It is through that singleness that the (c) happiness comes to fulfilment. The happiness is the [mental] joy faculty, while the (d) pleasure is the [bodily] pleasure faculty, the unification of cognizance is concentration. So that second meditation possesses four factors (§ 565).

[3rd Meditation]
    587. < With the fading ... of happiness, he ... > (§ 550) has abandoned what is comprised by wetness. But joy-cognizance still arises there, and when he investigates that, he attends with only [conasсent] onlooking-equanimity < With the fadin of happiness he abides in onlooking-equanimity > (§ 550) ; and as he [still] feels with the body the (d) pleasure induced by the happiness he abides aware, by means of which (g) mindfulness and (h) awareness the (i) onlooking-equanimity comes to fulfilment.   [And the (e) unification of cognizance is concentrations. So] that third meditation possesses five factors (§ 566).

[4th Meditation]
    588. [144] Likewise < with the abandoning of bodily pleasure> (§ 550) in the first meditation the grief faculty ceases, and in the second meditation the pain faculty ceases (cf. § 584), so < with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters upon and abides in the fourth meditation, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure, and the purity of whose mindfulness is due to onlooking-equanimity > (§ 550). Herein, the onlooking-equanimity was as yet unclarified owing to the [presence of the] four faculties, namely the pain faculty, grief faculty, pleasure faculty, and joy faculty. With the cessation of these there is onlooking-equanimity and awareness. Herein, it was owing to the pleasure faculty and the joy faculty that there was unmindfulness, and with their cessation he becomes possessed of mindfulness ; and it is owing to the pain faculty and the grief faculty that there was unawareness, and with their cessation he becomes aware. So with the clarification due to (i) onlooking-equanimity, [which is accompanied by (k) neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling,] he becomes (j) mindful and aware, and there is (e) unification of cognizance (cf. § 567). This is called the fourth meditation.
« Последнее редактирование: 21:00 20 Августа 2018 от Ассаджи »
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #27 : 10:03 01 Октября 2018 »

И в джайнском тексте, и в Вимуттимагге в связи с витаккой приводится сравнение с чтением текста. То есть происходит переход от одного понятия к другому.

Вичара в Вимуттимагге сравнивается с изучением смысла текста сутты как целого.

Как же витакка и вичара применяются в контексте самадхи?

На мой взгляд, самадхи с витаккой подразумевает движение по определенному кругу понятий, например, по 32 частям тела, или по качествам Будды, и т.п.

Самадхи с вичарой подразумевает многократное обращение внимания на определенное понятие, например, повторение "воздух, воздух" при практике касины воздуха (или анапанасати), описанное в Вимуттимагге и Висуддхимагге.

 Нашел соответствующие описания в Комментарии к Вибханге:

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Tattha kesādīnaṃ vaṇṇasaṇṭhānadisokāsaparicchedavasena upaṭṭhānaṃ uggahanimittaṃ, sabbākārato paṭikūlavasena upaṭṭhānaṃ paṭibhāganimittaṃ. Taṃ punappunaṃ āvajjentassa manasikarontassa takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ karontassa cattāro khandhā paṭikūlārammaṇā honti, paṭhamajjhānavasena appanā pavattati. Pubbabhāge parikammaupacāracittāni savitakkasavicārāni sappītikāni somanassasahagatāni paṭikūlanimittārammaṇāni; appanāpi savitakkasavicārā sappītikā somanassasahagatāva. Bhūmantarena pana mahaggatā rūpāvacarā honti. Paṭikkūlepi ca etasmiṃ ārammaṇe ānisaṃsadassāvitāya somanassaṃ uppajjati, ekattārammaṇabaleneva vā taṃ uppajjati. Dutiyajjhānādīni panettha na nibbattanti. Kasmā? Oḷārikattā. Idañhi ārammaṇaṃ oḷārikaṃ. Vitakkabalenevettha cittekaggatā jāyati, na vitakkasamatikkamenāti. Ayaṃ tāva samathavasena kammaṭṭhānakathā.

Tattha appanāya pāpitakālato paṭṭhāya sesakoṭṭhāsesu akilamantova appanaṃ pāpessati. Tasmā ‘paṭikūlaṃ paṭikūlan’ti punappunaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ samannāharitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ. Evaṃ karontassa cattāro khandhā paṭikūlārammaṇā honti, appanaṃ pāpuṇāti. Pubbabhāgacittāni parikammaupacārasaṅkhātāni savitakkasavicārānīti sabbaṃ heṭṭhā vuttasadisameva. Ekaṃ pana koṭṭhāsaṃ manasikarontassa ekameva paṭhamajjhānaṃ nibbattati. Pāṭiyekkaṃ manasikarontassa dvattiṃsa paṭhamajjhānāni nibbattanti. Hatthe gahitapañhāvatthu pākatikameva.

В первом отрывке описывается многократное мысленное движение по списку 32 частей тела (kesādīnaṃ), а во втором обращение внимания на понятие непривлекательности (paṭikūla), приводящее к первой джхане. Отмечается, что такой подход не приводит ко второй и последующим джханам (Dutiyajjhānādīni panettha na nibbattanti) в силу того, что такая опора грубая (ārammaṇaṃ oḷārikaṃ).

Такое использование понятий перекликается с описанием в Йога-сутре:

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tatra śabdārtha-jñāna-vikalpaiḥ saṁkīrṇā savitarkā samāpattiḥ ॥42॥

42. Здесь сосредоточение "с умозрением" лишено отчетливости ввиду различия между словом, объектом и понятием.

Например, хотя слово "корова", объект "корова" и понятие "корова" различаются между собой, в познавательном процессе они кажутся нераздельными. При анализе [обнаруживается, что] свойства слова – это одно, свойства объекта – другое, а свойства понятия – третье. Иначе говоря, их способы существования различны.

Если при этом у йогина в состоянии сосредоточения объект "корова" и т.п., попавший в [сферу его] сосредоточенного постижения, оказывается связанным с различением слова, объекта и понятия, то такое неотчетливое состояние сосредоточения называется "умозрительным".

http://psylib.org.ua/books/patanja/ostru/txt05.htm
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #28 : 10:17 01 Октября 2018 »

Описание в Саманамундика сутте, в Петакопадесе и в Вопросах Милинды отчасти совпадает с указаниями в Йога-сутре.

Саманамундика сутта:

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    And what are skillful resolves? Being resolved on renunciation, on non-aversion, on harmlessness. These are called skillful resolves. What is the cause of skillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they are said to be recognition-caused. Which recognition? — for recognition has many modes and permutations. Any renunciation-recognition, non-aversion-recognition, or harmlessness-recognition: That is the cause of skillful resolves.

    Now where do skillful resolves cease without trace? Their stopping, too, has been stated: There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, enters and remains in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of composure. This is where skillful resolves cease without trace.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.078.than.html

Петакопадеса:

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Tatthaalobhassa pāripūriyā nekkhammavitakkaṃ vitakketi. Tattha adosassa pāripūriyā abyāpādavitakkaṃ vitakketi. Tattha amohassa pāripūriyā avihiṃsāvitakkaṃ vitakketi.

   Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.

Tattha alobhassa pāripūriyā vivitto hoti kāmehi. Tattha adosassa pāripūriyā amohassa pāripūriyā ca vivitto hoti pāpakehi akusalehi dhammehi, savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

    Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena. And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

Vitakkāti tayo vitakkā – nekkhammavitakko abyāpādavitakko avihiṃsāvitakko.

    Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely the thought of renunciation, the thought of non-aversion, and the thought of harmlessness.

Вопросы Милинды:

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katamaṃ, mahārāja, bhagavato samādhiratanaṃ? savitakkasavicāro samādhi, avitakkavicāramatto samādhi, avitakkāvicāro samādhi, suññato samādhi, animitto samādhi, appaṇihito samādhi. samādhiratanaṃ kho, mahārāja, piḷandhassa bhikkhuno ye te kāmavitakkabyāpādavitakkavihiṃsāvitakkamānuddhaccadiṭṭhivicikicchākilesavatthūni vividhāni ca kuvitakkāni, te sabbe samādhiṃ āsajja vikiranti vidhamanti viddhaṃsanti na saṇṭhanti na upalimpanti 

Что такое у Блаженного драгоценное сосредоточение, госу­дарь?

Это сосредоточение с задумыванием и продумыванием, сосредоточение с одним продумыванием без задумывания, со­средоточение без задумывания и продумывания, пустотное сосредоточение, бессвойственное сосредоточение, неприлагаемое сосредоточение. От монаха в уборе драгоценного сосредоточения, государь, все страстные помыслы, враждебные помыслы, вреди­тельские помыслы, аффекты гордости, неуравновешенности, лжемудрия, сомнения и всяческие дурные помыслы – все это, столкнувшись с сосредоточением, скатывается с него, спадает, слетает, не пристает к нему и не может его замарать.

Йога-сутра:

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(1) etayaiva savichara nirvichara cha sukshma-vishaya vyakhyata (44)

(1) sukshma-vishayatvam chalinga-paryavasanam (45)

(1) ta eva sabijah samadhih (46)

(1) vichara-vaisharadye'dhyatma-prasadah (47)

(2) vitarka badhane pratipaksha bhavanam (84)

33. ложные помыслы [служат] препятствием, [следует] развивать их противоположности.

Когда у этого брахмана возникают ложные помыслы о насилии и т.п., [например]: "Я убью того, кто чинит мне препятствия", "Я также солгу", "Я присвою его вещи", "Я соблазню его жену", "Я стану хозяином его собственности", – [помыслы], служащие препятствием, уводящие его, словно [он] в лихорадочном бреду, с правильного пути, пусть он культивирует противоположные [помыслы] : "Поджариваемый на раскаленных углях сансары, я прибегаю к защите практики йоги, даруя безопасность всем живым существам". Пусть он думает: "Оставив ложные помыслы, я, подобно собаке, вновь предаюсь им. Как собака к собственной блевотине, так и я вновь возвращаюсь к тому, от чего я избавился".

(2) vitarka himsadayah krita-karitanumodita lobha-krodha-moha-purvaka mridu-madhyadhimatra duhkhajnananantaphala iti pratipaksha-bhavanam (85)

34. Ложные помыслы о насилии и прочем – совершенном, побужденном к совершению [или] одобренном, – возникшие вследствие жадности, гнева [или] заблуждения, [бывают] слабыми, средними и сильными [и имеют своими] неисчислимыми плодами страдание и отсутствие знания; поэтому [необходимо] культивировать их противоположности.

http://www.psylib.ukrweb.net/books/patanja/ostru/txt06.htm
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #29 : 13:26 01 Октября 2018 »

В Висуддхимагге так описывается применение "витакки" (помысла) для достижения джханы:

Vism 1, 4. pathavīkasiṇaniddeso

apica vaṇṇaṃ amuñcitvā nissayasavaṇṇaṃ katvā ussadavasena paṇṇattidhamme cittaṃ paṭṭhapetvā manasi kātabbaṃ. pathavī mahī, medinī, bhūmi, vasudhā, vasundharātiādīsu pathavīnāmesu yamicchati, yadassa saññānukūlaṃ hoti, taṃ vattabbaṃ. apica pathavīti etadeva nāmaṃ pākaṭaṃ, tasmā pākaṭavaseneva pathavī pathavīti bhāvetabbaṃ. kālena ummīletvā kālena nimīletvā āvajjitabbaṃ. yāva uggahanimittaṃ nuppajjati, tāva kālasatampi kālasahassampi tato bhiyyopi eteneva nayena bhāvetabbaṃ.


29.    The  colour  should  not  be  reviewed.  The characteristic  should  not  be  given  attention.[8]  But rather, while not ignoring the colour, attention should be given by setting the mind on the [name] concept as the  most  outstanding  mental  datum,  relegating  the colour  to  the  position  of  a  property  of  its  physical support.  That  [conceptual  state]  can  be  called  by anyone  he  likes  among  the  names  for  earth  (pathavī) such as “earth” (pathavī), “the Great One” (mahī), “the Friendly   One”   (medinī),   “ground”   (bhūmi),   “the Provider of Wealth” (vasudhā), “the Bearer of Wealth”(vasudharā),  etc.,  whichever  suits  his  manner  of perception. Still “earth” is also a name that is obvious, so it can be developed with the obvious one by saying “earth, earth.” It should be adverted to now with eyes open,  now  with  eyes  shut.  And  he  should  go  on developing it in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, and even more than that, until the learning sign arises.

57. tassevaṃ bhāvayato yadā nimīletvā āvajjantassa ummīlitakāle viya āpāthamāgacchati, tadā uggahanimittaṃ jātaṃ nāma hoti. tassa jātakālato paṭṭhāya na tasmiṃ ṭhāne nisīditabbaṃ. attano vasanaṭṭhānaṃ pavisitvā tattha nisinnena bhāvetabbaṃ. pādadhovanapapañcaparihāratthaṃ panassa ekapaṭalikupāhanā ca kattaradaṇḍo ca icchitabbo. athānena sace taruṇo samādhi kenacideva asappāyakāraṇena nassati, upāhanā āruyha kattaradaṇḍaṃ gahetvā taṃ ṭhānaṃ gantvā nimittaṃ ādāya āgantvā sukhanisinnena bhāvetabbaṃ, punappunaṃ samannāharitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ. tassevaṃ karontassa anukkamena nīvaraṇāni vikkhambhanti, kilesā sannisīdanti, upacārasamādhinā cittaṃ samādhiyati, paṭibhāganimittaṃ uppajjati.

When,  while  he  is  developing  it  in  this  way,  it comes  into  focus  as  he  adverts  with  his  eyes  shut exactly as it does with his eyes open, then the learning sign  is  said  to  have  been  produced.  After  its production he should no longer sit in that place; he should  return  to  his  own  quarters  and  go  on developing  it  sitting  there.  But  in  order  to  avoid  the delay  of  foot  washing,  a  pair  of  single-soled  sandals and  a  walking  stick  are  desirable.  Then  if  the  new concentration   vanishes   through   some   unsuitable encounter, he can put his sandals on, take his walking stick,  and  go  back  to  the  place  to  re-apprehend  the sign  there.  When  he  returns  he  should  seat  himself comfortably and develop it by reiterated reaction to it and  by  striking  at  it  with  thought  and  applied thought.

[The Counterpart Sign]
31.  As he does so, the hindrances eventually become suppressed,   the   defilements   subside,   the   mind becomes  concentrated  with  access  concentration,  and the counterpart sign arises.


Vism 1, 6. asubhakammaṭṭhānaniddeso, uddhumātakakammaṭṭhānaṃ

rattiṭṭhāne ca divāṭhāne ca “uddhumātakapaṭikkūlaṃ uddhumātakapaṭikkūlan”ti tattha punappunaṃ cittaṃ upanibandhitabbaṃ. punappunaṃ taṃ nimittaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ, manasikātabbaṃ. takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.


 In  his  night quarters  and  in  his  day  quarters  he  should  keep  his mind  anchored  there  thus,  “Repulsiveness  of  the bloated, repulsiveness of the bloated.” And he should advert to the sign, bring it to mind and strike at it with thought and applied thought over and over again.


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, paṭhamāruppavaṇṇanā

 so taṃ kasiṇugghāṭimākāsanimittaṃ “ākāso ākāso”ti punappunaṃ āvajjeti, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ karoti. tassevaṃ punappunaṃ āvajjayato takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ karoto nīvaraṇāni vikkhambhanti, sati santiṭṭhati, upacārena cittaṃ samādhiyati. so taṃ nimittaṃ punappunaṃ āsevati, bhāveti, bahulīkaroti.


9.  He adverts again and again to the sign of the space left  by  the  removal  of  the  kasiṇa  as  “space, space,”  and  strikes  at  it  with  thought  and  applied thought.  As  he  adverts  to  it  again  and  again  and strikes  at  it  with  thought  and  applied  thought,  the hindrances are suppressed, mindfulness is established and  his  mind  becomes  concentrated  in  access.  He cultivates  that  sign  again  and  again,  develops  and repeatedly practices it.


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, viññāṇañcāyatanakathā

viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ santato manasikaritvā taṃ ākāsaṃ pharitvā pavattaviññāṇaṃ “viññāṇaṃ viññāṇan”ti punappunaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ, manasikātabbaṃ, paccavekkhitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.

he  should  give  his attention   to   the   base   consisting   of   boundless consciousness as peaceful, adverting again and again as “consciousness, consciousness” to the consciousness  that  occurred  pervading  that  space  [as its object]. He should give it attention, review it, and strike at it with applied and sustained thought ...


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, ākiñcaññāyatanakathā

taṃ viññāṇaṃ amanasikaritvā “natthi natthī”ti vā, “suññaṃ suññan”ti vā, “vivittaṃ vivittan”ti vā punappunaṃ āvajjitabbaṃ, manasikātabbaṃ, paccavekkhitabbaṃ, takkāhataṃ vitakkāhataṃ kātabbaṃ.

33.    Without  giving  [further]  attention  to  that consciousness,  he  should  [now]  advert  again  and again in this way, “there is not, there is not,” or “void, void,” or “secluded, secluded,” and give his attention to  it,  review  it,  and  strike  at  it  with  thought  and applied thought.


Vism 1, 10. āruppaniddeso, nevasaññānāsaññāyatanakathā

nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ santato manasikaritvā “sāva abhāvaṃ ārammaṇaṃ katvā pavattitā ākiñcaññāyatanasamāpatti santā santā”ti punappunaṃ āvajjitabbā, manasikātabbā, paccavekkhitabbā, takkāhatā vitakkāhatā kātabbā.

He  should  advert  again  and  again  to  that attainment  of  the  base  consisting  of  nothingness  that has   occurred   making   non-existence   its   object, adverting to it as “peaceful, peaceful,” and he should give his attention to it, review it and strike at it with thought and applied thought.
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #30 : 14:09 01 Октября 2018 »

Цитата: Рената#443304
Цитата: Ассаджи#443302
В первой джхане внимание обращается понятийно, с помощью помысла (витакка).
Кажется, понимаю - только в первой джхане необходимо задумывание на определенном объекте, в следующих установленное задумывание будет развиваться.

Да. Помысел (витакка) используется для входа в последующие джханы.

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152.    When  he  has  emerged  from  the  second  jhāna happiness appears gross to him as he reviews the jhāna  factors  with  mindfulness  and  full  awareness, while bliss and unification appear peaceful. Then as he brings that same sign to mind as “earth, earth” again and  again  with  the  purpose  of  abandoning  the  gross factor  and  obtaining  the  peaceful  factors,  [knowing] “now  the  third  jhāna  will  arise,”  there  arises  in  him mind-door adverting with that same earth kasiṇa as its object,  interrupting  the  life-continuum.  After  that, either  four  or  five  impulsions  impel  on  that  same object,  the  last  one  of  which  is  an  impulsion  of  the fine-material sphere belonging to the third jhāna.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp207h_The-Path-of-Purification-(Visuddhimagga).pdf#page=448

Но после входа в последующие джханы они поддерживаются уже за счет ощущений, а не за счет помыслов.

Цитата: Рената#443304
А как понимать "продумывание"? В моем понимании продумывание предполагает череду разных мыслей, которые несовместимы с однонаправленностью.

Изучение (вичара) рефлексивно, об этом пишет Ачан Ли:

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Вам нужно привести ум к предмету и затем удерживать его там, удостоверившись, что он остаётся на месте. Опять-таки это похоже на еду: удостоверьтесь в том, что пища находится около рта, и кладите её прямо туда. Это и будет витакка – пища около рта, рот около пищи. Вы знаете наверняка, что это пища; и вы знаете, что это за пища – первое блюдо или десерт, грубая пища или утончённая.

И если вы знаете, что есть что, и пища находится у вас во рту, пережёвывайте её как следует. Это вичара, т.е. проверка, оценка своей медитации. Иногда она наступает при «сосредоточении доступа»: мы рассматриваем грубый предмет, так что он становится всё более и более утончённым. Если вы находите дыхание долгим, рассматривайте долгое дыхание. Если вы находите его коротким, рассматривайте короткое дыхание. Если вы находите дыхание медленным, рассматривайте медленное дыхание, – чтобы увидеть, захочет ли ум оставаться с этим видом дыхания, и чтобы увидеть, захочет ли дыхание этого вида оставаться с умом, увидеть, будет ли это дыхание плавным или беспрепятственным. Это вичара.

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В. Изучение (вичара): обретите чувство того, как позволить этому приятному ощущению дыхания распространиться вместе с другими дыхательными ощущениями внутри тела и действовать в согласии с ними. Пусть все эти дыхательные ощущения распространяются, пока они не сольются вместе. Когда тело будет успокоено дыханием, утихнут и ощущения боли. Тело будет наполнено полезной энергией дыхания. (Ум сосредоточен исключительно на вопросах, связанных с дыханием.)

https://dhamma.ru/lib/authors/lee/samadhi.htm

Островская и Рудой в переводе Йога-сутры называют вичару "рефлексией".
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sergey_os

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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #31 : 14:46 01 Октября 2018 »

Статья, в которой автор приводит некоторые аргументы в пользу того, что витакка в джхане может означать мышление.
http://blog.buddha-vacana.org/why-vitakka-might-mean-thinking-in-jhana/
Есть ссылки на ряд сутт. Статья является комментарием к статье бхиккху Суджато Why vitakka doesn’t mean ‘thinking’ in jhana.
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #32 : 16:59 16 Октября 2018 »

Интересно употребление "вичара" в Титтхаятана сутте:

The Eighteen Investigations of Mind


‘Ime aṭṭhārasa manopavicārā’ ti bhikkhave mayā Dhammo desito

‘These are the eighteen investigations of mind’ is a Teaching, monks, taught by me



aniggahito asaṁkiliṭṭho anupavajjo appaṭikuṭṭho samaṇehi brāhmaṇehi viññūhī ti.

that is without reproach, undefiled, blameless, and unreviled by wise ascetics and brahmins.



Iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ, kiñ-cetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?

This is what was said, but in regard to what was it said?



Cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,

Having seen a form with the eye he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant form,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant form,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati.

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral form. 



Sotena saddaṁ sutvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ saddaṁ upavicarati,

Having heard a sound with the ear he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant sound,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ saddaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant sound,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ saddaṁ upavicarati.

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral sound.



Ghānena gandhaṁ ghāyitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ gandhaṁ upavicarati,

Having smelt a smell with the nose he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant smell,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ gandhaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant smell,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ gandhaṁ upavicarati.

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral smell.



Jivhāya rasaṁ sāyitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rasaṁ upavicarati,

Having tasted a taste with the tongue he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant taste,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rasaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant taste,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ rasaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral taste,



Kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,

Having touched a tangible with the body he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant tangible,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant tangible,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral tangible,



Manasā dhammaṁ viññāya somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati,

Having cognised a mental object with the mind he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant mental object,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant mental object,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati.

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral mental object.



‘Ime aṭṭhārasa manopavicārā’ ti bhikkhave mayā Dhammo desito

‘These are the eighteen investigations of mind’ is a Teaching, monks, taught by me



aniggahito asaṁkiliṭṭho anupavajjo appaṭikuṭṭho samaṇehi brāhmaṇehi viññūhī ti.

that is without reproach, undefiled, blameless, and unreviled by wise ascetics and brahmins.



Iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ, idam-etaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.

This is that which was said, and this is the reason it was said.


https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Short-Pieces/Titthayatanasuttam.htm#Eight
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manikarnika

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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #33 : 03:15 18 Октября 2018 »

У нас тут будут ученики Па Аук Саяду, которые реализовали 8 джан. Пойду просто и уточню про витакку и вичару...

А то меня от пассажей в стиле
- «Почтенный Нагасена, каково свойство задумывания?»— «Свойство задумывания — вставлять, государь»

как то мутит.
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #34 : 09:46 20 Октября 2018 »

Интересно употребление "вичара" в Титтхаятана сутте:

Kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,

Having touched a tangible with the body he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant tangible,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant tangible,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral tangible,



Manasā dhammaṁ viññāya somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati,

Having cognised a mental object with the mind he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant mental object,



domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati,

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant mental object,



upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati.

he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral mental object.

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Short-Pieces/Titthayatanasuttam.htm#Eight

Это отчасти перекликается с указаниями Ачана Ли:

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    В. Изучение (вичара): обретите чувство того, как позволить этому приятному ощущению дыхания распространиться вместе с другими дыхательными ощущениями внутри тела и действовать в согласии с ними. Пусть все эти дыхательные ощущения распространяются, пока они не сольются вместе. Когда тело будет успокоено дыханием, утихнут и ощущения боли. Тело будет наполнено полезной энергией дыхания.

https://dhamma.ru/lib/authors/lee/samadhi.htm
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #35 : 12:12 28 Декабря 2018 »

@crizna написал:

    Let me illustrate the point by means of the much disputed terms ‘vitakka’ and ‘vicāra’. Unlike with the interpretations in the Theravāda tradition, there seems to have been no major disagreement among the Northern Schools as to the meaning of those terms.

    vitarkaḥ katamaḥ. paryeṣako manojalpaḥ cetanāprajñāviśeṣaḥ yā cittasyaudārikatā.
    vicāraḥ katamaḥ. pratyavekṣako manojalpas tathaiva yā cittasya sūkṣmatā. anabhyūhāvasthāyāṃ cetanā abhyūhāvasthāyāṃ prajñeti vyavasthāpyate.

    Sphuṭārthā Abhidharmakośavyākhyā 64-65

    'What is ‘vitarka’? A mental murmur of enquiry (paryeṣako manojalpaḥ), which rests on the support of volition (cetanā) or speculative knowledge (prajñā), according as it does not or does include deduction (abhyūha), It is a gross state of mind.

    What is ‘vicāra’ ? A mental murmur of judgment (pratyavekṣako manojalpas) which rests on the volition, etc. (as above). That is the subtleness of mind.’

    (Translation by P.S. Jaini in the Introduction to his edition of the Abhidharmadīpa, p. 87).

    P.S. Jaini remarks: ‘Here ‘vitarka’ refers to the state of enquiry of mind and ‘vicāra’ to the state of judgment.’

    In the Sphuṭārthā passage cited above Yaśomitra quoted the view of the old masters (pūrvācārya). Almost identical explanations are found in various treatises of Asaṅga (e.g. Abhidharmasamuccayabhāṣyam 8-9) and Vasubandhu (e.g. Pañca-Skandhaka 64). A similar explanation is also found in Harivarman’s Satyasiddhiśāstra 215 -216.
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Re: "Vitakka" и "vicāra"
« Ответ #36 : 13:01 23 Апреля 2019 »

Джеф Шац пишет:

It's difficult to try to ascertain the definitions of terms entirely through reading the suttas alone. Firstly, there are many diverse meditation subjects offered in the suttas. And secondly, without recourse to the early strata of commentary, modern interpretations can be based on certain assumptions not present in the suttas themselves.

We see in the canonical and para-canonical commentaries that the analysis and defining of terms often give a spectrum of meanings, which illustrates a developmental path, not a rigid "one-size-fits-all" type of approach. For example, the canonical Dhammasaṅgaṇī gives the following two registers for vitakka and vicāra (the English equivalents here are those offered by Lance Cousins, who's done an exhaustive survey of all relevant Pāli sources):

vitakka:

1. takka 2. vitakka 3. saṅkappa 4. appanā 5. byappanā 6. cetaso abhiniropanā 7. sammāsaṅkappa

1. speculation 2. thought 3. thought formation 4. fixing 5. firm fixing 6. applying the mind 7. right thought formation.

vicāra:

1. cāra 2. vicāra 3. anuvicāra 4. upavicāra 5. cittassa anusandhānatā 6. anupekkhanatā

1. wandering 2. wandering about 3. repeated wandering about 4. frequenting 5. explorativeness of mind 6. constant examination.


Сама статья Ленса Казинса:

VITAKKA/VITARKA AND VICĀRA: Stages of samādhi in Buddhism and Yoga
L. S. COUSINS

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24659522
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