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[Zom]

Интересную аргументацию выдвигает Аджан Буддадаса.
Он пишет, что разделение Патичча Самуппады на три жизни не является верным
и неверно трактовалось на протяжении более 1.5 тысяч лет

Подробнее здесь:

http://what-buddha-taught.net/Books6/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Paticcasamuppada.htm

[Ассаджи]

Интересную аргументацию выдвигает Аджан Буддадаса.
Он пишет, что разделение Патичча Самуппады на три жизни не является верным
и неверно трактовалось на протяжении более 1.5 тысяч лет

К сожалению, это только заявления, а аргументов как таковых нет.

О разбиении обусловленного возникновения по трем жизням можно прочитать, например, в Маханидана сутте:

"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for aging and death, i.e., birth.

...

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html

Подробнее об этом пишет Бхиккху Бодхи.

[Zom]

Буддадаса говорит о том, что не следует буквально понимать становление, рождение, старость и смерть.
Разделение на 3 жизни идёт только в комментариях, первый раз встречается у Буддагоши. Однако в самом каноне про 3 жизни ничего не говорится.

В частности, он пишет, что под "рождением/старением/смертью" нужно понимать появление-и-исчезновение самой концепции "Я" - а не физического тела. Цепь взаимозависимого возникновения запускается тогда, когда по отсутствии мудрости совершаются неумелые поступки. Это запускает цепь и происходит становление (рождение). Это может происходить много раз за один день - происходит рождение Я в разных "бхуми" - богов, асуров, людей, животных и т.п.. Чтобы родиться, например, в аду, необязательно умирать.

Если avijja уничтожена, то становления Я более не будет в этой самой жизни.

[Ассаджи]

Dependent Arising : Patticca Samuppada - By Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/dependArising.htm

Four Aspects of Paticcasamuppada: Mahasi Sayadaw

http://www.nibbana.com/mahasip6.htm#87

Paticcasamuppada: Narada Mahathera

http://www.vipassana.com/resources/nutshell_paticcasamuppada.php

[Ассаджи]

Мне понравилась статья Патрика Керни по обусловленному возникновению:

http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Dependent%20arising/dependent_arising.html
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Dependent%20arising/files/06_Seeing_and_understanding.pdf
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/files/podcast_76.MP3

[Ассаджи]

Досточтимый Нянатилока подробно пишет об обусловленном возникновении, приводя объяснения из Абхидхаммы:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paticca_samuppaada.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html#ch3

[Ассаджи]

Идея "моментального" обусловленного возникновения появляется в комментарии к Абхидхамма Питаке, "Саммоха-винодани".

http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002-dependent10.htm

[polnoch]

О Пробудившемся уже нельзя сказать, что он существует, или его не существует.

Это он о себе    не может сказать,есть он или нет-)))Для окружающих все по прежнему.

[Ассаджи]

О Пробудившемся уже нельзя сказать, что он существует, или его не существует.

Это он о себе    не может сказать,есть он или нет-)))Для окружающих все по прежнему.

При жизни он таки есть. А потом - не поддается описанию.

[Zom]

Ассаджи, а вы не могли бы перевести в точности как звучит описание в суттах Буддой 12-го звена (Смерть и Старость) ?

[Ассаджи]

Ассаджи, а вы не могли бы перевести в точности как звучит описание в суттах Буддой 12-го звена (Смерть и Старость) ?

98. ‘‘‘Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇa’nti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. Jāti ca hi, ānanda, nābhavissa sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ kassaci kimhici, seyyathidaṃ – devānaṃ vā devattāya, gandhabbānaṃ vā gandhabbattāya, yakkhānaṃ vā yakkhattāya, bhūtānaṃ vā bhūtattāya, manussānaṃ vā manussattāya, catuppadānaṃ vā catuppadattāya, pakkhīnaṃ vā pakkhittāya, sarīsapānaṃ vā sarīsapattāya [siriṃsapānaṃ siriṃsapattāya (sī. syā.)], tesaṃ tesañca hi, ānanda, sattānaṃ tadattāya jāti nābhavissa. Sabbaso jātiyā asati jātinirodhā api nu kho jarāmaraṇaṃ paññāyethā’’ti?

‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’.

‘‘Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo jarāmaraṇassa, yadidaṃ jāti’’.



"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for aging and death, i.e., birth.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html


92. ‘‘Sādhāvuso’’ti kho te bhikkhū āyasmato sāriputtassa bhāsitaṃ abhinanditvā anumoditvā āyasmantaṃ sāriputtaṃ uttari pañhaṃ apucchuṃ – ‘‘siyā panāvuso, aññopi pariyāyo yathā ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti, ujugatāssa diṭṭhi, dhamme aveccappasādena samannāgato, āgato imaṃ saddhamma’’nti?

‘‘Siyā, āvuso. Yato kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako jarāmaraṇañca pajānāti, jarāmaraṇasamudayañca pajānāti, jarāmaraṇanirodhañca pajānāti, jarāmaraṇanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadañca pajānāti – ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti, ujugatāssa diṭṭhi, dhamme aveccappasādena samannāgato, āgato imaṃ saddhammaṃ. Katamaṃ panāvuso, jarāmaraṇaṃ, katamo jarāmaraṇasamudayo, katamo jarāmaraṇanirodho, katamā jarāmaraṇanirodhagāminī paṭipadā? Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jarā jīraṇatā khaṇḍiccaṃ pāliccaṃ valittacatā āyuno saṃhāni indriyānaṃ paripāko – ayaṃ vuccatāvuso, jarā. Katamañcāvuso, maraṇaṃ? Yā [yaṃ (pī. ka.), satipaṭṭhānasuttepi] tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhā tamhā sattanikāyā cuti cavanatā bhedo antaradhānaṃ maccu maraṇaṃ kālaṃkiriyā khandhānaṃ bhedo, kaḷevarassa nikkhepo, jīvitindriyassupacchedo – idaṃ vuccatāvuso, maraṇaṃ. Iti ayañca jarā idañca maraṇaṃ – idaṃ vuccatāvuso, jarāmaraṇaṃ. Jātisamudayā jarāmaraṇasamudayo, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇanirodho, ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo jarāmaraṇanirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṃ – sammādiṭṭhi…pe… sammāsamādhi.

‘‘Yato kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako evaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jarāmaraṇasamudaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jarāmaraṇanirodhaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jarāmaraṇanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ pajānāti, so sabbaso rāgānusayaṃ pahāya…pe… dukkhassantakaro hoti – ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti, ujugatāssa diṭṭhi, dhamme aveccappasādena samannāgato, āgato imaṃ saddhamma’’nti.




20. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

21. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands aging and death, the origin of aging and death, the cessation of aging and death, and the way leading to the cessation of aging and death, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

22. "And what is aging and death, what is the origin of aging and death, what is the cessation of aging and death, what is the way leading to the cessation of aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, grayness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties — this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body — this is called death. So this aging and this death are what is called aging and death. With the arising of birth there is the arising of aging and death. With the cessation of birth there is the cessation of aging and death. The way leading to the cessation of aging and death is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

23. "When a noble disciple has thus understood aging and death, the origin of aging and death, the cessation of aging and death, and the way leading to the cessation of aging and death... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html#aging

[polnoch]

При жизни он таки есть. А потом - не поддается описанию.

При жизни он есть для других(что собственно и имелось ввиду:

Для окружающих все по прежнему.

Для него самого это " за гранью понимания".
 

[Zom]

Ассаджи, спасибо!

Можно ли на основе этих источников утверждать о том, что Патичча Самуппада не подразумевалась Буддой как мгновенно-срабатывающая, а имелось в виду, что каждое звено длится продолжительный промежуток времени?

[Ассаджи]

Можно ли на основе этих источников утверждать о том, что Патичча Самуппада не подразумевалась Буддой как мгновенно-срабатывающая, а имелось в виду, что каждое звено длится продолжительный промежуток времени?

Модель обусловленного возникновения охватывает три жизни - предыдущую, эту, и последующую.
Она показывает предпосылки воспроизведения страдания из одной жизни в другую.

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticca.htm

Средняя часть, от сознания до бывания, относится к этой жизни. Описанные в ней причинно-следственные связи в основном относятся к работе ума, то есть к очень быстрым процессам.

Язык модели обусловленного возникновения - необходимые предпосылки.

Например, необходимой предпосылкой горения является кислород. Если говорить в стиле обусловленного возникновения:

Горение происходит при наличии кислорода.
С исчезновением кислорода горение прекращается.

Звенья обусловленного возникновения - не костяшки домино, толкающие друг друга, и не последовательная смена кинокадров. Каждое предшествующее звено делает возможным следующее, но продолжает существовать и после возникновения следующего. Важно то, что с прекращением необходимой предпосылки развертывание следующего звена прекращается.

[Ассаджи]

В целом обусловленное возникновение - образец причинно-следственного исследования явлений, применяемого и рекомендуемого Буддой:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html

[Ассаджи]

Модель обусловленного возникновения отчасти напоминает "Структурный дифференциал" Коржибского:

http://www.thisisnotthat.com/learn/sd-ovr.html
http://esgs.free.fr/uk/sd.htm
http://mcckc.edu/~lewis/akbio.htm

Глава из книги Коржибского в русском переводе:
http://rapidshare.com/files/84850609/BOOK_II_RUS.pdf

[Ассаджи]

Досточтимый Аматхагавеси обучал развитию мудрости так:

Panna (Insight)
The vipassana method is ‘structured’ for ease of comprehension, rapid development and possibly teaching. It is based on the visuddhi or purifications. The insights build up on each other until it reaches fruition. The method utilises all of the six doors of contact. Each stage of vipassana is practiced on average for a whole day, during retreat. Each may take from 1- 4 weeks practiced while in normal lay life. Even during normal lay life one must try to maintain the 'vipassana atmosphere' and try see everything through the lense of vipassana.

Nama-Rupa
The practitioner focuses on the movement of the mind rushing to each sense base in turn, in between the arising of various sights, sounds etc. ie – a sound is heard, and then the ‘mind’ rushes to that ear and the sound is heard clearer. This is understood as the experience of the rupa components of the sound and the ear coming together and that giving rise to sota vinnana/ear consciousness, which then fuses (the movement of the mind to the ear) with the former two to give rise to a mental component which is Contact/phassa.

If one focuses on the phassa a little longer one can see vedana/pleasantness,unpleasantness and sanna/concept,meaning arising as well subsequently. With this method it was possible to see the 5 aggregates arising and passing away in the present.

Then when the practitioner was able to clearly see that everything was made up of this process and that there was nothing beyond nama-rupa, he was asked to look at the relationship of the dhammas which arise.
Ditti-Visuddhi would be reached at this stage with understanding namarupa pariccheda nana.

Hethu-Phala (cause and effect)
He is asked to focus on the movement of the mind to the sense base (vinnana) and the subsequent arising of the sound (phassa) as these are the easier aspects to detect. He is asked to see the first as cause and the latter as effect, of that cause. He is asked to do this until it is clear that everything arises due to a cause. Each effect then in turn becomes an cause for the next link of the chain. This way it is possible to see the following chain:

Sound+ear (gives rise to) sotavinnana (gives rise to) phassa (gives rise to) vedana,sanna,sankhara (cetana, manasikara)

With further mindfulness it is possible to see pleasantness arising at any sense base, if it were adequately strong, would give rise to craving. This can be experienced. If the craving were adequately strong it would give rise to attachment/upadana. This can be known in retrospect if in turn, attachment/upadana were to give rise to bhava/becoming – this can be experienced as a thought arising seemingly of it’s own accord. Such thoughts would be based on a attachment which was still present in the mind, unknown to us. For example a thought/memory of something that we ate, that we particularly enjoyed would arise suddenly seemingly out of nowhere. Such a thought is a combination of five aggregates, the basic building blocks of a ‘being’. If the body were to perish such a thought due to it’s inherent energy would arise seemingly out of nowhere, elsewhere ie in a foetus.

However it is not required for the yogi to see all these steps for the first stage of Sotapanna. If he can see even one link of the chain of dpendant origination and understand that this law applies to every Dhamma that arises, it is considered adequate. Later evolvement of this method included contemplating that if there were no cause, there would be no effect either. Pacchayapariggaha nana would be completed here.

It is in the this stage that most people see that there is no self and the tilakkana is understood. One sees that the tilakkhana and causality is applicable to everything that arises and passes away. This is the completion of sammasana-ñana.

The stage of Kankhavitarana visuddhi would be completed here.

Anicca
After seeing Nama-Rupa and Hethu-Phala, the practitioner goes on to focus actively on the impermanence of hethu (cause) and impermamance of phala (effect). Some as an additional step go on to look at impermanence of nama and the impermanence of rupa.
This stage is complete when the yogi clearly sees impermanence in everything. Fear, revulsion etc may arise.
This stage completes the early stage of udayavyaya nana, magga-magga nanadassana visuddhi,

Athiweema-Nethiweema (arising-passing away)
Here the yogi is asked to focus on the arising of the in-breath and passing away of the in-breath; arising of the out-breath and passing away of the outbreath, using anapanasathi (mindfulness of breath). This remains a powerful way of focusing and deepening on the insight of anicca.
This completes the mature stage of udayavyaya nana and leads all the way to the magga-citta and phala citta.
Magga-Phala (Path and Fruit)
Reaching of magga and phala citta is experienced as an (upward) movement of the mind far stronger that what is experienced in the movement of the mind into jhana. This movement shoots the mind into a non-experience. Everything ceases for a moment. This is the experiencing of nibbana, for a moment. This is followed by great rapture and bliss never experienced before. It lasts several hours and the practitioner is unable to practice vipassana further in this state. Often he experiences rapture spreading across his chest. He may experience much happiness and an understanding that he has attained something very special. As a way of determining that this is what has actually happened, it is possible to ask the yogi to keep on seeing anicca as before. He will experience this same phenomena again as his faculties (the factors of the noble eightfold path) are in a high state of development. Before the magga and phala citta arises the practitioner may experience subtle bursts of rapture, almost predicting that the moment of attainment is close at hand.

Phalasamawatha (Attainment of Fruition)
Then the yogi is asked to wish for the fruit of his practice upto now –to experience it for a few minutes. His mind should dip into the non-experience of nibbana for a few minutes. This is often accompanied by rapture which is different in character to that of the jhanas. The practitioner feels the need to go into this again and again and to abide in this state longer and longer. However for some, the ability to enter into this stage may take a few days to develop. He may experience this automatically when repeating vipassana in a sankhara upekha stage.

When coming out of phalasamawatha, one is able to experience various sankhara (mental formations) pulling one ‘out’ and giving rise to vinnana (consciousness) again. Alternatively when seeing constantly with insight into anicca one can fall into phala. This shows the reverse first steps of the paticcasamuppada where the fading of avijja leads to the fading of sankhara (mental formations), this in turn leads to the fading of vinana, therefore every subsequent step of the paticcasamuppada. It becomes clear that this is the path to the cessation of suffering.

A yogi may not explicitly be able to state all this unless pointed out to him. However he has seen all this and understanding is inherent. His knowledge is like that of drinking a cup of tea for the first time. He may not be able to say what the tast of sugar is or the taste of tea is, but he has experienced it and knows it almost subconsiously. However when it is pointed out, the separate components become clear. It is a common experience that the suttas become clearer, when the practice has been completed in this manner.

With this knowledge doubt is cleared. This is doubt about the ariya magga as a path to the cessation of suffering. It also eradicated doubt based on views (ie- ideas, standpoints not based on direct experiencing) about existence and non-existence.

One does not seek another teacher to seek cessation of suffering, but has fully developed faith and confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and sangha in this.

One does not think that observing rites and rituals will give rise to cessation of suffering. Sila arises naturally without being forced. (silabbataparamasa)

One has understood that there is no Self and also the insubstantiality/sunnata of everything (Sakkaya ditti is eradicated).

One has seen the full extent of dukkha, ie how even the five aggregates are suffering. (Dukkha sacca)

One has seen that craving for the five aggregates is counteracted by insight. (Samudaya sacca)

One has experienced the cessation of suffering. (nirodha sacca)
One has seen that the path to the cessation of suffering is the noble eightfold path, which is experienced in the mind. (Magga sacca)

The totality of the experience that the practitioner has had can now be summarised as the four noble truths.

This is the Path leading to the stage of Stream entry or the Sotapanna.

May all being attain nibbana!

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=49356
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=92355&view=findpost&p=1240108

[Ассаджи]

По Маханидана сутте, сознание и нама-рупа взаимно обусловлены, и происходят в смычке сдруг с другом с момента рождения. Так что третье и четвертое звено возникают практически одновременно.

Name-and-form

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
Consciousness

"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned?

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.

"This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html




Viññana (consciousness) is the third link - conditioned by sankhara (formations). First - pronounciation: The n-tilde is a 'Spanish n' and viññana is sometimes written phonetically as 'vinyana' where the 'ny' is the same as in canyon.

In the 3-life model of paticca samuppada [P.S.] this consciousness is commonly called "re-linking consciousness" (patisandhi-viññana) or "kamma-resultant consciousness" (vipaka-viññana) [see table  § ]. From ignorant actions in our past life (avijja & sankhara) it is viññana that flows on into, and arises in this new life. The idea being that viññana - in union with sperm and egg - is the definitive factor for the arising of a new life. This is conception in the full and complete sense. It seems reasonable that the process of conception and birth is clearly more than just a mechanical sperm-egg thing and, by extension, it also seems reasonable to presume rebirth. Kamma/viññana seems a reasonable medium for this but, did the Buddha intend the P.S. structure as the explanation of this? The underlying principles of condition-dependant arising can be seen within the death/rebirth process but in this context of P.S. we will consider the arising of viññana as part of the flow of this-life, of experience, in this life.

It may be helpful to explore a broader definition of viññana before finding it a position in P.S.
"When there is the sense-object, the sense-organ (in working order) and contact between the two, this three-fold union (object, organ, contact) is the arising of consciousness. If the arising is dependant on eye and form we talk of visual-consciousness (nose + odour = nasal c.; etc.)." (part Majjhima 28)
There are then six forms of consciousness - each arising dependant on one of the senses (the mind as the sixth). This a stock definition of viññana and although in P.S. the senses are not yet 'in play' this definition reinforces the dependant nature of viññana. It can not arise, nor exist independently.
"without supporting conditions, there is no arising of consciousness" (Majjhima 38)
One factor always present with viññana is intention - we have to intend to make contact with (eg. to look at) something before viññana can arise. In the frame of P.S. this intention is sankhara but the consciousness that arises here is still quite nascent, it is 'simple.'

http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/teachings/d-vinn.htm

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Почему-то распространено представление, что нама и рупа - нераздельное целое.
Рупа (тело) без нама (психики) - это, например, камень.
А психикой без тела обладают бестелесные существа.

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Интересная статья на английском об обусловленном возникновении:

A Critical Examination of Ñāṇavīra Thera's "A Note on Paṭiccasamuppāda" - Bhikkhu Bodhi
Copyright Buddhist Studies Review - 1998

[Теги:]

Теги: патичча-самуппада