Термины "падмасана" и "ваджрасана"

[Shus]

Всем доброго дня!

Как известно (?), в суттах при описании медитации используется выражение "со скрещенными ногами" ("скрестив ноги").
А употребляются ли в канонической или комментаторской литературе термины "падмасана" или "ваджрасана" (в смысле медитационной позы, а не трона)? И если да, то есть ли их описания.

[Ассаджи]

Доброго времени!

Таких поз тогда еще не было, их позже натхи разработали.

В суттах действительно упоминается поза скрестив ноги (палланкам):

Kathaṃ bhāvitā ca bhikkhave, ānāpānasati kathaṃ bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṃsā. Idha bhikkhave, bhikkhū araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā nisīdati pallaṅkaṃ ābhujitvā ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā so satova assasati, sato passasati.

И каким образом памятование о дыхании, когда его развивают и постоянно практикуют, приводит к совершенству все четыре способа установления памятования?

При этом, монахи, монах уходит в лес, под крону дерева, или в пустынное место, садится, скрестив свои ноги, держит тело прямо и устанавливает памятование возле рта.

Постоянно памятуя, он вдыхает, и памятуя, он выдыхает.

https://dhamma.ru/canon/mn/mn118.htm

См. тему https://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic=527.0

[LXNDR]

поиск по Канону и постканоническим текстам падмасану не выводит

вот все слова с основой padm
https://tipitaka.theravada.su/search.php?scope=text&search=padm%2A

vajra на пали звучит как vajira (1, 2)

и vajirāsana в комментариях и подкомментариях упоминается
https://tipitaka.theravada.su/search.php?scope=text&search=vajir%C4%81san%2A

[Shus]

Ассаджи и LXNDR, большое спасибо!

Пытаюсь понять, как термин "падмасана" попал в тхеравадинскую иконографию. С "ваджрасаной" (как позой) тоже не все ясно, т.к., НЯП, этот термин впервые появился как обозначение места пробуждения Будды под деревом Бодхи.

UPD: А как в наставлениях по медитации тхеравадинские учителя называют позу лотоса и полулотоса?

[Ассаджи]

 Sihasana Pallanka (Great Lion Throne) was used during Konbaung Dynasty (1752 to 1885). It weighed approximately 1 ton, was approximately 14 feet in height and was 15 feet wide and five feet long. Thrones used by the Myanmar Kings in ancient and historical times have included: 1) the Sihasana Pallanka (Lion Throne); 2) Hamsasana Pallanka (Hamsa Throne); 3) Gijasana Pallanka (Elephant Throne); 4) Mayurasana Pallanka (Peacock Throne); 5) Bhamarasana Pallanka (Bumble Bee Throne); 6) Padumasana Pallanka (Lotus Throne); 7) Sinkhasana Pallanka (Conch Shell Throne); 8) Migasana Pallanka; (Deer Throne).

http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Myanmar/sub5_5f/entry-3100.html

[Shus]

Sihasana Pallanka (Great Lion Throne) was used during Konbaung Dynasty (1752 to 1885). It weighed approximately 1 ton, was approximately 14 feet in height and was 15 feet wide and five feet long. Thrones used by the Myanmar Kings in ancient and historical times have included: 1) the Sihasana Pallanka (Lion Throne); 2) Hamsasana Pallanka (Hamsa Throne); 3) Gijasana Pallanka (Elephant Throne); 4) Mayurasana Pallanka (Peacock Throne); 5) Bhamarasana Pallanka (Bumble Bee Throne); 6) Padumasana Pallanka (Lotus Throne); 7) Sinkhasana Pallanka (Conch Shell Throne); 8) Migasana Pallanka; (Deer Throne).

http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Myanmar/sub5_5f/entry-3100.html

Да, все верно. Один даже сохранился. Но здесь идет речь о тронах, а не о позах.  Падмасана/ваджрасана (поза) может быть и на львином, и на лотосовом троне.

[Ассаджи]

Опять же, таких поз в Тхераваде нет. Есть только сидения и престолы.

[Shus]

Опять же, таких поз в Тхераваде нет. Есть только сидения и престолы.

Их используют при описании тхеравадинской иконографии весьма уважаемые авторы. Возможно, что это просто заимствование общеиндийской терминологии для удобства изложения.

Но ведь позы как-то называются в руководствах по медитации? Или нет?

[Ассаджи]

The Buddha images assume different mudras (hand-gestures) like Dhammacakkamudra, Jhanamudra, Vittakamudra, Abhyamudra, Bhumiphassamudra, Varadamudra , etc and various asanas (leg-postures) like Pallankasana, Maharajadhipatiasana, Maharajalalitasana, Padamasana, etc .

http://www.globalnewlightofmyanmar.com/a-visit-to-thaton/

[LXNDR]

небольшая подборка выдержек, касающихся позы, из литературы по медитации

Posture

The usual ascetic posture is sitting down cross-legged, and this was the position used by the Buddha when He attained enlightenment.  This posture is, therefore, regarded as affording the means whereby one realizes complete enlightenment, or Buddhahood. 

Its Sanskrit name is Buddhāsana, the "Buddha posture", or  vajrāsana, the "diamond throne", upon which the Buddha conquered Māra, the Evil One.  In the scriptures, it is described by the phrase (Dīgha Nikāya I, 71, II, 291; Majjhima Nikāya I, 56; Vinaya I, 119;  Vibhanga 252; etc.):   Pallankaṃ  ābhujitvā, ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya, parimukhaṃ satiṃ upasshapetvā, "he sits down assuming a cross-legged position, placing the body upright, setting mindfulness in front [of him]."  The Commentaries explain pallanka as "urubaddhāsana", "the position that is assumed when one sits down cross-legged".  This posture is represented in the seated image of the Buddha, which is called samādhipiḷima, "the image of the meditation posture", in Sinhalese.

When this posture is assumed, the right leg is crossed over the left; the feet are resting upon the upper portion of the thighs;  the soles are turned upward; the hands are placed just below the level of  the navel, with the bend of the wrists pressed against the thighs, bracing the upper part of the body; the  spinal column is straight, like a pile of coins, one coin on top of another.  The diaphragm is expanded to its maximum fullness; the chin is up; the sight is fixed on the tip of the nose or else straight in front (as implied by parimukhaṃ satiṃ upasshapetvā, "setting mindfulness in front [of him]").   

This posture is recommended for general use in meditation, and, in the practice of mindfulness of breathing (ānāpānasati), it is necessary to assume this posture, for, otherwise, the breathing cannot be grasped as the mental image of meditation in its regular and normal form.  It is, therefore, definitely associated in the scriptures with that practice.  A passage in the Majjhima Nikāya (III, 135), however, gives walking to and fro as an alternative.  The recommended sitting postures are illustrated below: (см. вложение)

According to the Visuddhimagga, a disciple who practices the kasiṇa meditation should sit on a small chair comfortably arranged when he or she gazes at the  kasiṇa device.  Once the mental object  is grasped, he or she may meditate in any of the above postures that may be convenient and in which he or she can remain for a long period of time without physical discomfort.  In the practice of the  asubha meditation, a disciple
should sit or stand gazing at the object of asubha, and, after attaining the image (nimitta), he or she may continue his or her practice in another posture.

There are, however, no mandatory rules  laid down concerning time and posture for meditation.  One is free to choose any time and any posture that may be convenient for him or her, as long as the back is kept perfectly straight.  But, once chosen, he or she should adhere to a set routine from the very beginning of his or her training.

на мой взгляд последний абзац точно отражает отношение к позе для медитации в тхераваде

Sit in a half-lotus position, right leg on top of the left leg, your hands placed palm-up on your lap, right hand on top of the left. Keep your body straight...

Suitable Posture is any one of the four postures—sitting, lying, standing, and walking—that is beneficial to the practice. Which particular posture is to be preferred can be discovered by personal experiment. The meditator must find out in which posture his mind can most easily become concentrated and remain so. Having found his  Suitable Posture, he should keep to it. Once he has become proficient in concentration he can use the remaining three postures as well so that he can develop one-pointedness regardless of posture.

The practice of meditation has been going on for  several  thousand years.  That  is quite  a bit of  time for experimentation,  and  the procedure  has  been  very,  very  thoroughly  refined.  Buddhist  practice  has  always  recognized  that  the mind  and  body  are  tightly linked and  that  each  influences  the other.  Thus  there are certain  recommended physical practices which will greatly  assist you  to master  your  skill. And  these  practices  should  be  followed. Keep  in mind,  however,  that  these  postures  are  practice  aids. Don't confuse  the  two. Meditation  does  not mean  sitting  in  the  lotus  position.  It  is  a mental  skill.  It  can  be  practiced  anywhere  you wish. But these postures will help you learn this skill and they speed your progress and development. So use them.

General  Rules

The purpose of  the various postures  is  threefold. First,  they provide a stable feeling  in  the body. This allows you  to  remove your attention from such issues as balance and muscular fatigue, so that you can then center your concentration upon the formal object of meditation.  Second,  they  promote  physical  immobility which  is  then  reflected  by  an  immobility  of mind.  This  creates  a  deeply settled  and  tranquil  concentration.  Third,  they  give  you  the  ability  to  sit  for  a  long  period  of  time  without  yielding  to  the meditator's  three  main  enemies--pain,  muscular  tension  and  falling  asleep.  The  most  essential  thing  is  to  sit  with  your  back straight.  The spine should be erect with  the spinal vertebrae held  like a stack of coins, one on  top of  the other. Your head should be held  in  line with  the rest of  the spine. All of  this  is done  in a relaxed manner. No Stiffness. You are not a wooden soldier, and there  is  no  drill  sergeant.  There  should  be  no muscular  tension  involved  in  keeping  the  back  straight.  Sit  light  and  easy.  The spine  should  be  like  a  firm  young  tree  growing  out  of  soft  ground.  The  rest  of  the  body  just  hangs  from  it  in  a  loose,  relaxed manner.  This  is going  to  require a bit of experimentation on your part. We generally  sit  in  tight, guarded postures when we are walking or  talking and  in sprawling postures when we are relaxing. Neither of  those will do. But  they are cultural habits and  they can be re-learned.

Your objective is  to achieve a posture in which you can sit for the entire session without moving at all. In the beginning, you will probably  feel  a  bit  odd  to  sit with  the  straight  back. But  you will  get  used  to  it.  It  takes  practice,  and  an  erect  posture  is  very important. This  is what  is known  in physiology as a position of arousal, and with  it goes mental alertness. If you slouch, you are inviting drowsiness. What you sit on  is equally  important. You are going  to need a chair or a cushion, depending on  the posture you choose, and  the firmness of  the seat must be chosen with some care. Too soft a seat can put you  right  to sleep. Too hard can promote pain.

Traditional Postures

When you are  sitting on  the floor  in  the  traditional Asian manner, you need a cushion  to  elevate your  spine. Choose one  that  is relatively firm and at  least  three  inches  thick when compressed. Sit close  to  the front edge of  the cushion and  let your crossed  legs rest on  the floor  in front of you.  If  the floor  is carpeted,  that may be enough  to protect your shins and ankles from pressure.  If  it  is not, you will probably need some sort of padding for your legs. A folded blanket will do nicely. Don't sit all  the way back on  the
cushion. This position causes  its front edge  to press  into  the underside of your  thigh, causing nerves  to pinch. The  result will be leg pain.

There are a number of ways you can fold your legs. We will list four in ascending order of preference.

1.  American indian style. Your right foot is tucked under the left knee and left foot is tucked under your right knee.
2.  Burmese style. Both of your legs  lie flat on  the floor from knee to foot. They are parallel with each other and one in front of the other.
3.  Half lotus. Both knees touch the floor. One leg and foot lie flat along the calf of the other leg.
4.  Full  lotus. Both  knees  touch  the floor,  and  your  legs  are  crossed  at  the  calf. Your  left foot  rests  on  the  right  thigh,  and your right foot rests on the left thigh. Both soles turn upward.

In these postures, your hands are cupped one on the other, and  they rest on your lap with  the palms  turned upward. The hands lie just below  the navel with  the bend of each wrist pressed against  the  thigh.  This  arm position provides firm bracing for  the upper body. Don't  tighten your neck muscles. Relax your arms. Your diaphragm  is held  relaxed, expanded  to maximum fullness. Don't let tension build up in  the stomach area. Your chin is up. Your eyes can be open or closed. If you keep them open, fix them on the tip  of your  nose  or  in  the middle  distance  straight  in  front. You  are  not  looking  at  anything. You  are  just  putting  your  eyes  in some arbitrary direction where  there  is nothing  in particular to see, so  that you can forget about vision. Don't  strain. Don't  stiffen and don't be rigid. Relax, let the body be natural and supple. Let it hang from the erect spine like a rag doll. Half and full  lotus positions are the traditional meditation postures in Asia. And the full  lotus  is considered the best. It  is  the most solid by far. Once you are  locked  into  this position, you can be completely  immovable for a very  long period. Since  it  requires a considerable flexibility  in  the legs, not everybody can do it. Besides,  the main criterion by which you choose a posture for yourself is  not what  others  say  about  it.  It  is  your  own  comfort.  Choose  a  position which  allows  you  to  sit  the  longest without  pain, without moving.  Experiment with  dif ferent  postures.  The  tendons will  loosen with  practice. And  then  you  can work  gradually towards the full lotus.

Using A Chair

Sitting  on  the floor may  not  be feasible  for  you  because  of pain  or  some  other  reason. No  problem. You  can  always  use  a  chair instead.  Pick  one  that  has  a  level  seat,  a  straight  back  and no  arms.  It  is  best  to  sit  in  such  a way  that  your back  does  not  lean against  the  back  of  the  chair.  The  front  of  the  seat  should  not  dig  into  the  underside  of  your  thighs.  Place  your  legs  side  by side,feet flat on  the floor. As with  the traditional postures, place both hands on your lap, cupped one upon the other. Don't  tighten
your neck or shoulder muscles, and relax your arms. Your eyes can be open or closed.

In all  the above postures, remember your objectives. You want  to achieve a state of complete physical stillness, yet you don't want to fall asleep. Recall  the analogy of  the muddy water. You want  to promote a  totally settled state of  the body which will engender a corresponding mental  settling.  There must  also be a  state of physical  alertness which can  induce  the kind of mental  clarity you seek. So experiment. Your body is a tool for creating desired mental states. Use it judiciously.

[Shus]

Спасибо большое, LXNDR!