Перевод "nibbidā"

Добро пожаловать, Гость. Пожалуйста, войдите или зарегистрируйтесь.

Имя пользователя: Пароль:

Автор Тема: Перевод "nibbidā"  (Прочитано 1509 раз)

0 Пользователей и 1 Гость просматривают эту тему.

Ассаджи

  • Администратор
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 7279
Перевод "nibbidā"
« : 11:44 29 Января 2016 »

Доброго времени!

Сью Хамилтон пишет:

The Pali word nibbidā is often found in contexts in the canon which refer to the human body. We saw it above in the Anguttara Nikaya passage about the impermanence of the body. The way nibbidā is translated frequently tends to further the view that the early Buddhist attitude towards the body was negative. Nibbidā can mean 'disgust', 'revulsion', 'indifference' or 'disenchantment'. In contexts where it must mean 'indifference' or 'disenchantment', translating it as 'disgust' or 'revulsion' is highly misleading. In the Pali Text Society translation of Volume V of the Samyutta Nikaya, for example, a translation by Woodward includes the following: "These seven limbs of wisdom . . . conduce to downright revulsion (ekantanibbidā), to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbāna". Nibbidā frequently occurs in this phrase, and in my opinion it cannot here mean anything other than 'indifference' or 'dis-enchantment': 'downright revulsion', directed towards the body or anything else, would be a karmically unwholesome, and therefore binding, volition quite inappropriate for a bhikkhu at this stage of the path. To use the words from another of Woodward's translations, it would be one of the "evil, unprofitable states which come to be because of wrong views". Even if one were to understand the qualities referred to in this sentence, disgust or indifference, dispassion, cessation, calm, full comprehension, wisdom, Nirvana, as being qualities which are acquired sequentially, it seems highly improbable to me that disgust would immediately precede so many other qualities which are more associated with detachment. Woodward repeats the translation of nibbidā as "downright revulsion" throughout his translations for the Pali Text Society. E. M. Hare translates nibbidā in the same context as "complete or as "complete weariness". T W. Rhys Davids, however, translates it as "detachment".

There are a multitude of similar examples of translations which are misleading about the attitude towards the body, but these will suffice to make my point. Scholarly works other than translations can be just as misleading in statements about the body, possibly because they have relied on the translations.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CDkFAAAAYAAJ&&pg=PA184
Записан

Ассаджи

  • Администратор
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 7279
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #1 : 11:48 29 Января 2016 »

Из словаря Кочергиной:

nirvinna pp. сытый, пресыщенный чем-л.

Из словаря Рис-Дейвидза:

Nibbindati [nis+vindati, vid2] to get wearied of (c. loc.); to have enough of, be satiated, turn away from, to be disgusted with. In two roots A. vind: prs. nibbindati etc. usually in combn withvirajjati & vimuccati (cp. nibbāna III. 2). Vin i.35; S ii.94; iv.86, 140; A v.3; Dh 277 sq.; It 33; J i.267; Miln 235, 244; Sdhp 612. ppr. nibbindaŋ
Записан

Ассаджи

  • Администратор
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 7279
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #2 : 12:15 29 Января 2016 »

Пия Тан пишет:

The stock phrase used in contexts which refer to nibbidā, is aṭṭiyati harāyati jigucchati, (“he is troubled , ashamed, disgusted (with)” is explained as follows:

Aṭṭiyati means “(one is) troubled, distressed, horrified , worried, bored, incommoded , pained” and is the denominative of aṭṭa (Skt ārta), “hurt, afflicted, tormented, desperate” (Sn 694). The Commentary on the Ambalaṭṭhika Rāhulovāda Sutta (M 61) glosses aṭṭiyitabbaṁ as aṭṭena pīḷitena bhavitabbaṁ, “one should be distressed, (feel) harassed” (MA 3:129). The Majjhima Commentary on the Vitakkasaṇṭhāna Sutta (M 20) explains aṭṭiyeyya as “(he) would be troubled” (aṭṭo dukkhito bhāveyya, MA 2: 90). The Vinaya Commentary says that one reflects in such a situation, thus, “now when will I be free from the sickness?” ( kadā nu kho gilānato muccissāmâ ti aṭṭiyanti , VA 467).

Harāyati, meaning “ashamed,” is the denominative of hiri (moral shame). The Majjhima Commentary glosses harāyeyya as lajjeyya, “one would be ashamed ” (MA 2:90), and harāyitabbaṁ as lajjitabbaṁ, “one should be ashamed” (MA 3:129).

Jigucchati (Skt jugutsati), “he shuns, avoids, loathes, detests, is revulsed at, is repelled by, is disgusted with, sickened by, horrified at,” is the desiderative (expressing desire) or reduplicative (expressing repetitiveness) of the root "gup", “to protect.” The Majjhima Commentary explains jigucchitabbaṁ as gūthaṁ disvā viya jigucchā uppādetabbā, “ one should arouse disgust (in oneself) as if looking at dung ” (MA 3:129).

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/20.1-Nibbida-piya.pdf
Записан

Ассаджи

  • Администратор
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 7279
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #3 : 16:10 06 Июля 2017 »

Можно провести связь между "пресыщением" и тем, что Будда уподобляет Дхамму рвотному средству в Вамана сутте:

Цитировать
109. Bhikkhus, the physician gives medicine to vomit for disorders of the bile, phlegm and air. Sometimes they agree and at other times they disagree.

Bhikkhus, I too give medicine to vomit, which definitely agrees does not disagree.

...

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/011-samanasannavaggo-e.html



Записан

Кхантибало

  • Содружество
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 160
    • Московская община Тхеравады
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #4 : 15:52 25 Мая 2018 »

В "огненной проповеди" слово nibbidā используется в отношении 6 сфер, сознания 6 сфер, соприкосновения в 6 сферах и возникающих на их основе ощущений.
Там слово "пресыщение" или "разочарование" вполне уместно.

Но есть и другой контекст:
Дхаммапада 277
«Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā»ti, yadā paññāya passati.
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.
Дост. Буддараккхита переводит turns away
"All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom,
one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Выходит, здесь не пресыщение, а какой-то другой смысл? Страданию и так никто особо не рад...
Комментарий к этой строфе я перевёл, но он особой ясности не вносит
https://tipitaka.theravada.su/view.php?ContentID=193897

что-то типа отстранения, отбрасывания, пренебрежения?
Записан

LXNDR

  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 243
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #5 : 16:14 25 Мая 2018 »

или отторжения, "отторгает страдание"
Записан

Кхантибало

  • Содружество
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 160
    • Московская община Тхеравады
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #6 : 16:22 25 Мая 2018 »

В "вопросах Милинды" А.В. Парибок переводит
nibbinditvā = Отвратившись
https://tipitaka.theravada.su/view.php?ContentID=122296
nibbinno = разочаровался
https://tipitaka.theravada.su/view.php?ContentID=122299

Записан

Ассаджи

  • Администратор
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 7279
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #7 : 20:58 25 Мая 2018 »

... есть и другой контекст:
Дхаммапада 277
«Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā»ti, yadā paññāya passati.
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.

Выходит, здесь не пресыщение, а какой-то другой смысл? Страданию и так никто особо не рад...

Как ни удивительно, существам не надоедает страдать, поскольку им мучительное кажется приятным.

Здесь предельно лаконично излагаются "семь распознаваний" - благодаря распознаванию непостоянства распознается мучительность, и в итоге это приводит к пресыщению, как описано в Чхачхакка сутте.

Pahāna (отбрасывание) стоит близко, но заметно отличается.
Записан

Кхантибало

  • Содружество
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 160
    • Московская община Тхеравады
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #8 : 15:17 28 Мая 2018 »

Дхаммапада 277
«Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā»ti, yadā paññāya passati.
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.
Оказывается, эта строфа есть ещё и в Тхерагатхе, её сказал Ання-кондання, к ней есть комментарий
https://tipitaka.theravada.su/view.php?ContentID=216395
Записан

Ассаджи

  • Администратор
  • Участник
  • Оффлайн Оффлайн
  • Сообщений: 7279
Re: Перевод "nibbidā"
« Ответ #9 : 19:31 20 Августа 2018 »

Суджато пишет:

Sometimes technical terms in the EBTs are used very frequently, but with little context. They occur in doctrinal passages, and the basic meaning is clear in context, yet pinning down the exact nuance can be difficult. In such cases we try to draw upon the meanings in everyday contexts, for that is how language works: from the simple and mundane to the abstract and philosophical.

One such term is the well-known nibbidā. Dictionaries give meanings such as “disgust”, “dissatisfaction”, “aversion”, “weariness”, “disenchantment”, “turning away”, “indifference”. That’s quite a semantic range for a term that almost always appears in exactly the same few doctrinal tropes! A few of these senses apply only to later texts, such as “weariness”.

Ven Bodhi followed Ven Nyanamoli in rendering as “disenchantment” for the Majjhima. In the Samyutta, he noted that it sometimes has a stronger sense, and used “revulsion”. While he gives no sources, I believe this was in response to a note from Ajahn Brahm, who has long argued for a stronger meaning. In Ven Bodhi’s Anguttara translation, however, he reverted to “disenchantment”, with (so far as I can see) no explanation.

I have looked, but I can’t find any cases that confirm the “stronger” sense of nibbidā. Perhaps they were thinking of contexts such as AN 9.15. This speaks of the body as a boil, with nine wounds oozing disgusting filth. The text finishes urging the monks to have nibbidā for the body. The problem is that there’s no real connection between the “disgustingness” of the body and the experience of nibbidā per se. After all, one is supposed to have nibbidā when seeing impermanence, or suffering, and so on. Nibbidā doesn’t mean disgust, it is the response when seeing something disgusting (or impermanent or whatever).

It is also worth noting that when the stock phrases that speak of things that are disgusting—such as aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati—are used, nibbidā is not found. The two ideas are distinct. Even places that relate the two ideas, such as the passage discussed above, are rare.

So what do we find in the everyday sense? By far the most common idiom is a phrase meaning to “leave disappointed” (nibbijja pakkamati). It’s used of the Buddha being disappointed in his former teachers (MN 26); the five monks being disappointed in the bodhisatta (MN 36); and the Jains being disappointed in the behavior of their monks after the passing of their teacher (DN 29). The same idiom is also used of a jackal who can’t get any meat out of a tortoise that’s all withdrawn in its shell; and Mara who gets disappointed when he can’t find a vulnerability (SN 35.240).

Mara also features in another couple of related idioms, including the “verses of disappointment” (nibbejanīyā gāthāyo) he recites when he realizes his failure to trap the Buddha (SN 4.24). Both he and his daughters appear in the context of “leaving disappointed”, which has the same sense as nibbijja pakkamati, but here we have nibbijjāpema (= nibbijja apema where apema = apa + eti).

All of these cases have basically the same meaning, to have your expectations or hopes dashed. “Disenchantment” isn’t quite right. Either “disillusionment” or “disappointment” would seem to mostly work okay. Note, though, that “disillusionment” means to have one’s unrealistic ideas corrected. But in some examples, specifically the case of the five monks leaving the Buddha, nibbidā doesn’t necessarily mean that one realizes the truth. In that case, they are experiencing nibbidā, but still based on their misunderstanding. Thus “disappointment” would fit better in such cases.

Clearly, in any case, there is no justification for the “stronger” renderings such as “disgust” or “revulsion”. You might argue that such sense could work in some cases: the five monks were disgusted with the bodhisatta when he started eating solid food. But it doesn’t fit the case of the Buddha leaving his former teachers, nor the jackal who can’t find food. “Disappointment” covers all these cases.

In doctrinal contexts, however, “disappointment” wouldn’t work. Practice Dhamma, and it leads to disappointment! In such cases, “disillusionment” works better.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/does-nibbida-mean-revulsion-or-disillusionment/10365
Записан
Теги: