Перевод "vedanā"
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Ассаджи

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Re: Перевод "vedanā"
« Ответ #20 : 20:00 02 Октября 2019 »

Акинчано Вебер обосновывает перевод "feeling tone" ("чувственный тон" или "чувственная окраска") или даже "hedonic tone" ("гедонистическая окраска"):

https://www.akincano.net/PDF/Hedonic_Hotspots-Vedana_Revisited.pdf

Насколько такие переводы уместны и понятны?
« Последнее редактирование: 06:16 03 Октября 2019 от Ассаджи »
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Ассаджи

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Re: Перевод "vedanā"
« Ответ #21 : 08:19 03 Октября 2019 »

В Комментарии говорится, что "vedanā" возникает одновременно с "phassa":

tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phassoti tesaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṅgatiyā phasso nāma uppajjati. taṃ phassaṃ paṭicca sahajātādivasena phassapaccayā vedanā uppajjati.

MN-a 1, (paṭhamo bhāgo), 2. sīhanādavaggo, 8. madhupiṇḍikasuttavaṇṇanā, para. 12
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Re: Перевод "vedanā"
« Ответ #22 : 09:37 03 Октября 2019 »

Sue Hamilton

Identity and Experience

Vedanā is sometimes translated as 'sensation' rather than 'feeling', and it could be argued that 'sensation' is a word which is more readily associated with neutrality than is 'feeling', which is more often associated in our minds with pleasure or pain. The word 'sensation' also implies a connection with the senses, which might be said to be more appropriate to vedanā, which requires the coming together of a sense organ and its corresponding sense object in order to arise. But 'feeling' can be used neutrally: it is not uncommon to say 'I feel indifferent about that'. And not only is it commonly accepted that feelings require sensory activity, even if this is not obviously implicit in the word itself, but in the Buddha's analysis of the khandhas this does not only apply to the vedanākhandha but to all four of the arūpakkhandhas. The main reason I prefer the use of the word 'feeling' rather than 'sensation' in translating vedanā is, however, because I suggest that vedanā has a cognitive dimension which is conveyed by the word 'feeling' but not by 'sensation'. The word vedanā comes from root vid, which has a twofold meaning involving both knowledge and (mere) feelings: intellectually it means to know and experientially it means to feel. In vedanā both of these meanings are relevant. Though itself referring only to potential cognitive processes, the wording of the twelvefold paṭiccasamuppāda formula suggests that the purely sensory event takes place when 'contact' occurs. The Pali word for this contact is phassa, and it is from phassa that vedanā then arises, which in turn subsequently gives rise to craving (taṇhā). From this we see that vedanā is more than the (mere) sensory event: it is one stage further on in the process. We have also seen above that feelings are intrinsically pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. This also implies that at the level of the feeling itself there is a degree of discrimination or cognition sufficient for its classification in one of these three ways. A further point arises from the description given above of the arising of feeling, which is that it illustrates that it is part of a process involving both saññā and viññāṇa. We shall see below in the chapters on these two khandhas that both of these are part of the cognitive process. But the saṃkhārakkhandha is not involved. Again as we shall see below (in chapter IV), this is where the emotions Westerners associate with feelings come from.

The cognitive role of vedanā is unsubtle: one might say that it is affective rather than intellectual cognition. It is nevertheless significant enough to be an important factor in understanding the role of the vedanākhandha correctly. From a psychological point of view, it is not too difficult for us to understand that vedanā is part of the cognitive process. We know, for example, that feelings can be expressed cognitively: if we say we are feeling sad, we also mean that we know that we are experiencing sadness. We also commonly refer to feelings as a vague level of knowledge in expressions such as 'I have the feeling that this is correct', or 'I feel there is something wrong here'. Thus vedanā plays a part, however nebulous, in the cognitive process of an individual. It is perhaps significant that vedayita, the (irregular) past passive participle of the verb vedeti, from which vedanā comes, is often interpreted as meaning 'experienced' rather than 'felt'. And 'experience' might be a better translation of vedanā when it is found in the context of the cognitive process as a whole: in English to state that cognition necessarily involves experience is more readily acceptable than stating that it necessarily involves feelings.

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=CDkFAAAAYAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=neutrality
« Последнее редактирование: 10:22 03 Октября 2019 от Ассаджи »
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Re: Перевод "vedanā"
« Ответ #23 : 11:00 03 Октября 2019 »

Акинчано Вебер обосновывает перевод "feeling tone" ("чувственный тон" или "чувственная окраска") или даже "hedonic tone" ("гедонистическая окраска"):

https://www.akincano.net/PDF/Hedonic_Hotspots-Vedana_Revisited.pdf

Насколько такие переводы уместны и понятны?

Что-то я не нахожу убедительных обоснований такой популярной трактовки.
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