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[manikarnika]

Приветствую,

асанкхара нибанна дхамма постоянна или непостоянна?

[Ассаджи]

Доброго времени!

Вы не могли бы указать контекст, из которого Вы взяли этот термин, и контекст, в котором Вас интересует этот вопрос?

[manikarnika]

Доброго времени!

Вы не могли бы указать контекст, из которого Вы взяли этот термин, и контекст, в котором Вас интересует этот вопрос?

Контекст:

Pa Auk Sayadaw. Knowing & Seeing... Nibanna as object...




+

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3

The Ultimate Realities

The Abhidhamma deals with realities existing in an ultimate sense, called in Pali paramattha dhammaa. There are four such realities:

• Citta, mind or consciousness, defined as that which knows or experiences an object. Citta occurs as distinct momentary states of consciousness
• Cetasikas, the mental factors that arise and occur along with the cittas
• Ruupa, physical phenomena, or material form
• Nibbaana

Citta, the cetasikas, and ruupa are conditioned realities. They arise because of conditions and disappear when their conditions cease to sustain them. Therefore they are impermanent. Nibbaana is an unconditioned reality. It does not arise and therefore does not fall away. These four realities can be experienced regardless of what name we give them. Any other thing — be it within ourselves or without, past, present, or future, coarse or subtle, low or lofty, far or near — is a concept and not an ultimate reality.

 

[Ассаджи]

Что касается теории дхамм средневековой Абхидхаммы, то я в ней не разбираюсь.

А в том что касается контекста сутт, вопрос о постоянстве/непостоянстве имеет смысл только по отношению к составляющим опыта, перечисленным, например, в Чхачхакка сутте. Иначе можно дойти до совершенно бессмысленных вопросов, например, о том, постоянно ли непостоянство, и т.д. и т.п.

http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic=416.0

Да и само непостоянство в буддийском пути - не предмет философствования, а развиваемый способ восприятия тех же составляющих опыта:

http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic=732.0

[До]

По идее санкхара (самскрита), это то, что обладает характеристиками возникновение и прекращение, т.е. теми же характеристиками, что и характеристики непостоянства.

[Ассаджи]

Как я понимаю, manikarnika имел в виду эпитет Ниббаны "асанкхата" - "неконструированное".

http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic=62.msg507#msg507

[До]

Да, я оговорился, конечно санкхата (аналог самскрита) , а не санкхара (аналог самскара).

Карунадаса пишет:

On this interpretation, the three characteristics of conditioned reality (sankhata-lakkhana)
-- namely, origination (uppada), cessation (vaya), and the alteration of
that which exists (thitassa annathatta) -- are universal characteristics (samanna-lakkhana).

ps. К слову, у него же:

Another noteworthy characteristic of paññattis is that they cannot be described
either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not
possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described.122

[manikarnika]

Так Нибанна к paññattis не относится

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon1.htm

There are two kinds of realities — apparent and ultimate.

           Apparent reality is the ordinary conventional truth or the commonly accepted truth (sammuti - sacca). It is called pannatti in Abhidhamma.

          Ultimate reality is the ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca). It is called paramattha in Abhidhamma.

           In basic science we learn about the apparent depth of an object in water. The apparent depth is shallower than the real depth. It appears to be the true depth due to the deviation of light rays on passing from a denser medium (water) to a lighter medium (air). So if a fisherman throws a spear at a fish where he sees it under water, the spear will not hit the fish, because the fish is not really there.

           In the same way pannattis or the apparent realities, though they seem to exist, do not really exist. What are the pannattis? Pannattis are the names of living- and non- living things; they also refer to the things and the persons themselves. Thus not only the names 'man, dog, table, house, etc.' are pannattis but the man, the dog, the table, the house, etc., are also pannattis.

The existence of rupa as matter and energy is easily seen. But Nibbana, being supramundane, cannot be perceived by the ordinary mind, but it can be observed by lokuttara (supramundane) cittas.

[До]

А я разве говорил, что относится. Это, кстати, еще одно подтсверждение, что элемент ниббаны не панняти (как некотоыре думают), так как он асанкхата.

[manikarnika]

Получаем таки Нибанну как объект для читты Архата; объект нерожденный, несозданный, несоставной.

И если она - не paññattis, то тема насчет

cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described.122

не применима.

А какая применима?

[До]

У Нины ван Горком, ниббана как может быть объектом для читты, так и без читты. (Говорю по памяти.)

[Ассаджи]

Из Дхаммапады:

225. Ahiṃsakā ye munayo, niccaṃ kāyena saṃvutā.
Te yanti accutaṃ ṭhānaṃ, yattha gantvā na socare.

225. Мудрецы, которые никого не обижают, чья плоть всегда смирена,
идут в неизменяемое место, и, придя туда, они не страдают.


Санкхата-лаккхана сутта:

"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.

"These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated.

"Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration while staying is discernible.

"These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.047.than.html


В 29 главе Патисамбхидамагги говорится, что Ниббана постоянна:

Pañcakkhandhe aniccato passanto anulomikaṃ khantiṃ paṭilabhati. Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ nirodho niccaṃ nibbānanti passanto sammattaniyāmaṃ okkamati.

Seeing the five aggregates as impermanent, he chooses in conformity; seeing how the cessation of the five aggregates is nibbana, which is permanent, he enters in the certainty of rightness.

...

Pañcakkhandhe anattato passanto anulomikaṃ khantiṃ paṭilabhati. Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ nirodho paramatthaṃ nibbānanti passanto sam­mat­tani­yā­maṃ okkamati.

Seeing the five aggregates as not self, he chooses in conformity; seeing how the cessation of the five aggregates is nibbana, which is the ultimate meaning (aim), he enters in the certainty of rightness.


Из 16 главы Висуддхимагги:

Tasmā appabhavameva, appabhavattā ajarāmaraṇaṃ, pabhavajarā maraṇānaṃ abāvato niccaṃ.

It is because of the absense of its creation and of its ageing and death that it [nibbana] is permanent.

...

Yathāvuttayuttisabbhāvato pana idameva niccaṃ, rūpasabhāvātikkamato arūpaṃ asitilaparakkamasiddhena ñāṇavisesena adhigamanīyato sabbaññuvacanato ca paramatthena nāvijjamānaṃ, vuttaṃ hetaṃ "Athī bhikkhave ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ"[a]ti.

Because it can be arrived at by distinction of knowledge that succeeds through untiring perseverance, and because it is the word of the Omniscient One, nibbana is not-existent as regards individual essence in the ultimate sense; for it is said: 'Bhikkhus, there is an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unformed' (Iti. 37; Ud. 80).

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Теги: Ниббана