Пити и сукха 2

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Пити и сукха
« : 21 Февраль 2004 13:33 »

Ассаджи (на БФ) пишет:
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Речь идет об угасании страданий, а не об угасании эмоций. Больше того, в число "факторов Пробуждения" входит, например, "восторг" (пити).

Ангуттара Никая IV.41, Самадхи сутта:
"При этом монах, - совершенно непривязанный к чувственности (кама), непривязанный к неумелым качествам (акусала-дхамма), - входит и остается в первой дхъяне: восторг (пити) и удовольствие (сукха), рожденные непривязанностью, сопровождаемые направленной мыслью (витакка) и анализом (вичара)."
...
"С угасанием восторга (пити), он пребывает в беспристрастии (упекха), с осознанностью (сати) и безупречным постижением (сампаджанна); и испытывает физическое удовольствие (сукха). Он входит и остается в третьей дхъяне, и о нем благородные говорят: "В удовольствии живет тот, кто беспристрастен и осознает".
С отбрасыванием удовольствия и страдания, - так же, как перед этим исчезли радость и горе, - он входит и остается в четвертой дхъяне: осознанности, очищенной беспристрастием (упекха-сати-париcуддхи), ни удовольствии, ни страдании (адукхам-асукха)."

Валпола Рахула, Чему учил Будда:
"4. Радость (пити), качество совершенно противоположное пессимистичному, тоскливому и печальному складу ума."

Accesstoinsight, A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist terms:
piti: Rapture; bliss; delight. In meditation, a pleasurable quality in the mind that reaches full maturity upon the development of the second level of jhana.

The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana:
Rapture (piti)
The third factor present in the first jhana is piti, usually translated as joy or rapture.[11] In the suttas piti is sometimes said to arise from another quality called pamojja, translated as joy or gladness, which springs up with the abandonment of the five hindrances. When the disciple sees the five hindrances abandoned in himself "gladness arises within him; thus gladdened, rapture arises in him; and when he is rapturous his body becomes tranquil" (D.i,73). Tranquillity in turn leads to happiness, on the basis of which the mind becomes concentrated. Thus rapture precedes the actual arising of the first jhana, but persists through the remaining stages up to the third jhana.

The Vibhanga defines piti as "gladness, joy, joyfulness, mirth, merriment, exultation, exhilaration, and satisfaction of mind" (Vbh. 257). The commentaries ascribe to it the characteristic of endearing, the function of refreshing the body and mind or pervading with rapture, and the manifestation as elation (Vism.143; PP.149). Shwe Zan Aung explains that "piti abstracted means interest of varying degrees of intensity, in an object felt as desirable or as calculated to bring happiness."[12]

When defined in terms of agency, piti is that which creates interest in the object; when defined in terms of its nature it is the interest in the object. Because it creates a positive interest in the object, the jhana factor of rapture is able to counter and suppress the hindrance of ill will, a state of aversion implying a negative evaluation of the object.

Rapture is graded into five categories: minor rapture, momentary rapture, showering rapture, uplifting rapture and pervading rapture.[13] Minor rapture is generally the first to appear in the progressive development of meditation; it is capable of causing the hairs of the body to rise. Momentary rapture, which is like lightning, comes next but cannot be sustained for long. Showering rapture runs through the body in waves, producing a thrill but without leaving a lasting impact. Uplifting rapture, which can cause levitation, is more sustained but still tends to disturb concentration, The form of rapture most conductive to the attainment of jhana is all-pervading rapture, which is said to suffuse the whole body so that it becomes like a full bladder or like a mountain cavern inundated with a mighty flood of water. The Visuddhimagga states that what is intended by the jhana factor of rapture is this all-pervading rapture "which is the root of absorption and comes by growth into association with absorption" (Vism.144; PP.151)

Happiness (sukha)
As a factor of the first jhana, sukha signifies pleasant feeling. The word is explicitly defined in the sense by the Vibhanga in its analysis of the first jhana: "Therein, what is happiness? Mental pleasure and happiness born of mind-contact, the felt pleasure and happiness born of mind-contact, pleasurable and happy feeling born of mind contact -- this is called 'happiness' " (Vbh.257). The Visuddhimagga explains that happiness in the first jhana has the characteristic of gratifying, the function of intensifying associated states, and as manifestation, the rendering of aid to its associated states (Vism. 145; PP.151).

Rapture and happiness link together in a very close relationship, but though the two are difficult to distinguish, they are not identical. Happiness is a feeling (vedana); rapture a mental formation (sankhara). Happiness always accompanies rapture, so that when rapture is present happiness must always be present; but rapture does not always accompany happiness, for in the third jhana, as we will see, there is happiness but no rapture. The Atthasalini, which explains rapture as "delight in the attaining of the desired object" and happiness as "the enjoyment of the taste of what is required," illustrates the difference by means of a simile:

Rapture is like a weary traveler in the desert in summer, who hears of, or sees water of a shady wood. Ease [happiness] is like his enjoying the water of entering the forest shade. For a man who, traveling along the path through a great desert and overcome by the heat, is thirsty and desirous of drink, if he saw a man on the way, would ask 'Where is water?' The other would say, 'Beyond the wood is a dense forest with a natural lake. Go there, and you will get some.' He, hearing these words, would be glad and delighted and as he went would see lotus leaves, etc., fallen on the ground and become more glad and delighted. Going onwards, he would see men with wet clothes and hair, hear the sounds of wild fowl and pea-fowl, etc., see the dense forest of green like a net of jewels growing by the edge of the natural lake, he would see the water lily, the lotus, the white lily, etc., growing in the lake, he would see the clear transparent water, he would be all the more glad and delighted, would descend into the natural lake, bathe and drink at pleasure and, his oppression being allayed, he would eat the fibers and stalks of the lilies, adorn himself with the blue lotus, carry on his shoulders the roots of the mandalaka, ascend from the lake, put on his clothes, dry the bathing cloth in the sun, and in the cool shade where the breeze blew ever so gently lay himself down and saw: 'O bliss! O bliss!' Thus should this illustration be applied. The time of gladness and delight from when he heard of the natural lake and the dense forest till he say the water is like rapture having the manner of gladness and delight at the object in view. The time when, after his bath and dried he laid himself down in the cool shade, saying, 'O bliss! O bliss!' etc., is the sense of ease [happiness] grown strong, established in that mode of enjoying the taste of the object.[14]
Since rapture and happiness co-exist in the first jhana, this simile should not be taken to imply that they are mutually exclusive. Its purport is to suggest that rapture gains prominence before happiness, for which it helps provide a causal foundation.

In the description of the first jhana, rapture and happiness are said to be "born of seclusion" and to suffuse the whole body of the meditator in such a way that there is no part of his body which remains unaffected by them:

Monks, secluded from sense pleasure... a monk enters and dwells in the first jhana. He steeps, drenches, fills and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body that is not suffused with this rapture and happiness. Just as a skilled bath-attendant or his apprentice might strew bathing powder in a copper basin, sprinkle it again and again with water, and knead it together so that the mass of bathing soap would be pervaded, suffused, and saturated with moisture inside and out yet would not ooze moisture, so a monk steeps, drenches, fills and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that, there is no part of his entire body that is not suffused with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion. (D.i,74)


Думается, сукха еще более может быть отнесена к эмоциям, чем пити. Но все же, те ли это обыденные эмоции, или это нечто другое, не мирское?
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Ассаджи

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Re: Пити и сукха
« Ответ #1 : 21 Февраль 2004 21:49 »

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Думается, сукха еще более может быть отнесена к эмоциям, чем пити. Но все же, те ли это обыденные эмоции, или это нечто другое, не мирское?


По объекту это нечто другое - счастье не от чувственных удовольствий, не телесное, не плотское (нирамиса). За счет этого оно гораздо тоньше и глубже. А по существенной характеристике, как я понимаю, одно и то же.
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Пити и сукха
« Ответ #2 : 22 Февраль 2004 15:43 »

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А по существенной характеристике, как я понимаю, одно и то же.

Но ведь в итоге (уже в четвертой дхъяне) они отбрасываются. Т.е. и эти тонкие эмоции угасают?
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Ассаджи

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Пити и сукха
« Ответ #3 : 22 Февраль 2004 21:58 »

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Но ведь в итоге (уже в четвертой дхъяне) они отбрасываются. Т.е. и эти тонкие эмоции угасают?


Угасание бывает разным. Одно дело, когда из крана перестает течь вода из-за повреждения водопровода, а другое -- когда кран перестает протекать, и можно включать и выключать воду.
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Пити и сукха
« Ответ #4 : 22 Февраль 2004 22:43 »

Вода нужна, пока хочется пить. Если нет жажды, то уже не нужна ни вода, ни кран ни водопровод. Весь смысл воды, кранов, протечек в жажде. :) И разве Ниббана не угасагие огня желаний и эмоций?
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Пити и сукха
« Ответ #5 : 24 Февраль 2004 17:44 »

//Но все же, те ли это обыденные эмоции, или это нечто другое, не мирское?//

Совершенно не мирское, особенно суккха. Говорю так уверенно, потому как, я этого достигал. А вот эмоция это, или нет - не знаю :D

//Но ведь в итоге (уже в четвертой дхъяне) они отбрасываются.//

Они успокаеваются, причем у меня это произошло очень, очень быстро, на одном порыве, так сказать.
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