О соотношении изучения текстов и медитативной практики - Вопросы практики - Постижение 2

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Ассаджи

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Материалы на английском:

The Case for Study
by Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_05.html

Сутта в переводе Бхиккху Бодхи:

Scholars and Meditators AN VI.46

'Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus:

"Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: "Look at those monks! They thing, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate to and mediate from meditate up and meditate down! What, then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

"Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying: 'Look at those monks! They thing "We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

"There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans.

"Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' Any why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). 'And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject."

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=11150

Еще один перевод:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html
« Последнее редактирование: 10 Апрель 2009 20:27 от Ассаджи »
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Zom

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    • Община Тхеравады в Санкт-Петербурге

Любопытная сутта, спасибо - никогда прежде не встречал ничего подобного (канонического) -)

Однако - в самой сутте не говорится о "балансе", а говорится о том, что не нужно критиковать (или прославлять) только тех, кто только практикует или тех, кто только изучает Дхамму интеллектуально. Есть и такие монахи (ученые), есть и другие (которые только "сидят"). И нужно хорошо относиться и к тем и к другим.

Кто-то в силу своих индивидуальных особенностей не способен практиковать
медитацию достаточно глубоко - но зато способен хорошо разобраться в учении на интеллектуальном уровне -
и в этом тоже есть плюс для "богов и людей".




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Ассаджи

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Эта сутта глубже. Как я понимаю, при практике без глубокого знания текстов может вдруг получаться джхана, но для развития мудрости, и даже для устойчивого достижения джхан, нужно такое знание.

Приведу остальную часть сообщения:

In the progress of the disciple, there are three stages that may be
distinguished: theory, practice and realization i.e. (1) learning
the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it
(patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal.
(Nyanatiloka)

On first reading it (this sutta), we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. It should also be noted how useless bickering and disparaging of others are.
How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level.
When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'.

If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary notes, I think.

The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of 'meditators'refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute.

From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators'have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars)"penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends.

The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana).

Obviously there is no suggestion that this is merely an intellectual approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment should be highly respected.

(including comments from from a post by Sarah Abbott at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33934 )
==========================
Irrespective of whether one believes in a particular set practice, or not, - the great importance of pariyatti, study, has been emphasised by the Blessed One.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-007.html

---------
As you will see, the word "dhamma" in these passages seems to refer to a very carefully crafted curriculum of teachings, and that there was a great concern that this body of material be accurately and precisely communicated from teacher to student. The realization in personal experience and the integrity of intention also seem to be areas of particular concern in the ancient context, as they are today.

Teaching the Dhamma
Anguttara Nikaya 5:159

It is not easy to teach dhamma to others.
Concerning the teaching of dhamma to others, only after five things have been internally established is dhamma to be taught to others.
What five?

1. "I shall speak a graduated discourse…"
2. "I shall speak a discourse that is insightfully-arranged…"
3. "I shall speak a discourse grounded upon caring…"
4. "I shall speak a discourse without motivation for personal gain…"
5. "I shall speak a discourse without disparaging myself or others…"
…thus is dhamma to be taught to others.

Confusing the True Dhamma
Anguttara Nikaya 5:154

These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:

1. do not carefully hear the dhamma,
2. do not carefully learn the dhamma,
3. do not carefully retain the dhamma,
4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained dhamma, and
5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma according to dhamma.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:155

These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:

1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains, verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions;

2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it;

3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it;

4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it;

5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:156

These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five?

1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, misarranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of the mis-arranged words and letters.

2. When monks mis-speak, do things that constitute mis-behavior, are endowed with a lack of patience/forbearance, and possess little talent for grasping the teaching.

3. When the monks who have learned much, who have received what has been passed down, who have retained the dhamma, the vinaya and the manuals, —they do not make others carefully speak the discourses; and because of their lapse the discourses become something with its roots severed, without a refuge.

4. When the senior monks live in luxury, take the lead in falling into laxity, lay aside the responsibility of dwelling in seclusion, and no longer put forth effort: to attain what has not yet been attained, to achieve what has not yet been achieved, to experience what has not yet been experienced.

5. When the community is divided. When the community is divided, then there is shouting at one another, there is blaming one another, there is closing in on one another, there is giving up on one another. Those who are not clear do not get clear there, and the few who are clear become otherwise.

Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, §
2, "On hearing Dhamma"):

Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What
five?
He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes
straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these
are the five advantages from hearing Dhamma.

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